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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 302649 times)

Graknorke

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2505 on: June 16, 2014, 12:25:54 pm »

Does she at least qualify this statement OUTSIDE a "Well women get beat up in real life more often, so they should get beat up in games less often"? Or by analyzing the type of violence towards women in games and showing it to be different then that towards males? As well as giving counter examples?
No, it was a disclaimer as to what people might find disturbing in the video, which were nudity and violence against women.

Apparently mentioning that the video has depictions of violence against women is the same thing as saying that violence against women is worse than violence against men.
If it's not worse then why can't it be under the blanket term of violence?

But she does that kind of thing a lot in this video. Makes it seem like things in games are specifically targeted against women, when it's really just general rules that apply to every NPC. Also taking examples while making up the context. Not something unusual.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 12:31:02 pm by Graknorke »
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2506 on: June 16, 2014, 12:29:03 pm »

Apparently mentioning that the video has depictions of violence against women is the same thing as saying that violence against women is worse than violence against men.

If it's not worse then why can't it be under the blanket term of violence?

Seriously? You're mad because she used the two words "against women"? You're just trying to find things to be offended by.
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palsch

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Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2507 on: June 16, 2014, 12:29:13 pm »

Apparently mentioning that the video has depictions of violence against women is the same thing as saying that violence against women is worse than violence against men.
This.

Also, here is a transcript. If you have disagreements, please quote them. Makes it a hell of a lot easier than making vague allusions to something or other from some point in the video. She also links the studies she mentions on that page.

If it's not worse then why can't it be under the blanket term of violence?
Specific types of violence are more likely to be triggers than violence in general. Violence against women is a specific and common trigger that it makes sense to warn about, especially in a video for feminist consumption, among groups who might usually avoid such content habitually.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2508 on: June 16, 2014, 12:29:47 pm »

I think she was more trying to say that this video shows graphic depictions of violence against women.

I am sure if she was making a video on violence against men... that she would put up a similar disclaimer if it was graphic violence against men.
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Graknorke

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2509 on: June 16, 2014, 12:35:26 pm »

Seriously? You're mad because she used the two words "against women"? You're just trying to find things to be offended by.
I'm mad and offended? Shit, didn't notice.

I'll take what palsch said though, hadn't considered the difference in audience.
Okay now off to get quotes of everything wrong with the video (might be a while).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 12:37:54 pm by Graknorke »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2510 on: June 16, 2014, 01:09:37 pm »

This should be interesting to get involved with.

Let's try it.

Real quick to start off with, I think the fact she said 'violence against women' is because if she just said 'violence', and you were being honest with yourself, what gender would you imagine being involved? Men, because that's the cultural norm for such a thing. Which in itself displays the sexism inherent in society.
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2511 on: June 16, 2014, 01:16:52 pm »

I think she was more trying to say that this video shows graphic depictions of violence against women.

I am sure if she was making a video on violence against men... that she would put up a similar disclaimer if it was graphic violence against men.
That's really stretching belief Neonivek, regardless of ones political position.

"Violence against women" is almost to the level of an atomic phrase now. It would be just "violence" if it involved non-female people. For reference, Hilary Clinton uses the phrase and you also have laws like the Violence Against Women Act. Nobody ever says "violence against men" unless it's as a reaction to the opposite gendered-version.

Plus Sarkeesian is a gender-studies graduate and thus comes from a background where that phrase would be slung around day and night. It just wouldn't occur to her to specify that there was violence against men.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:25:44 pm by Reelya »
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Vector

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2512 on: June 16, 2014, 01:27:06 pm »

Real quick to start off with, I think the fact she said 'violence against women' is because if she just said 'violence', and you were being honest with yourself, what gender would you imagine being involved? Men, because that's the cultural norm for such a thing. Which in itself displays the sexism inherent in society.

I'd say this, and also...


"Violence against women" is almost to the level of an atomic phrase now. It would be just "violence" if it involved non-female people. For reference, Hilary Clinton uses the phrase and you also have laws like the Violence Against Women Act. Nobody ever says "violence against men" unless it's as a reaction to the opposite gendered-version.

It already was just "violence." The clarification of it being "against women" is because there's a kind of violence which disproportionately affects women, and which the culture for a very long time pretended simply didn't exist. For example, a plain-old fist-fight would still be called "violence," ungendered, regardless of the participants. And similarly, we assume stereotypically that stuff like PTSD is a war-veteran thing, and have to specify "PTSD in women" or "PTSD as a result of domestic violence" if we're going to talk about it in other contexts. It's a response to assumptions people make about demographic when they hear certain words.

It doesn't really make sense to talk down terminology that evolved because people assume men are the default.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2513 on: June 16, 2014, 01:31:54 pm »

I'm mad and offended? Shit, didn't notice.

Yeah, sorry, I was overreacting.

And I think we've spent far too much time already arguing about what is probably the most insignificant part of the video.
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Graknorke

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Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2514 on: June 16, 2014, 01:33:18 pm »

Quote from: my previous post
Okay now off to get quotes of everything wrong with the video (might be a while).

Well I went through that transcript and took some bits that I had problems with. Though honestly I started to get pretty sick of it quickly so probably missed a few things I would have included. Not like there needs to be more in there.


EDIT:
And I think we've spent far too much time already arguing about what is probably the most insignificant part of the video.
What good timing to make that comment. Let the almost-flaming begin!
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2515 on: June 16, 2014, 01:35:39 pm »

Quote
I am sure if she was making a video on violence against men... that she would put up a similar disclaimer if it was graphic violence against men.

^ Specifically, this is what I was replying to. That's a very specific claim there.

No, I don't believe she would put up a "similar disclaimer". As Vector said, and I agree, violence vs men falls under the general concept of violence, so would get no gender specifier.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2516 on: June 16, 2014, 01:43:04 pm »

It gets the "Violence against women" I assume because it is taking on a very SPECIFIC type of graphic depiction of violence.

It isn't, for example, the violence towards women in a fighting game. It isn't a woman simply getting beaten up, shot, or what have you.

If it was just that I doubt there would be disclaimer.

Or rather it is not a disclaimer, giving Anita the benefit of the doubt, for violence against women but rather for a very specific kind of violence that is projected against women.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:50:17 pm by Neonivek »
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2517 on: June 16, 2014, 01:50:27 pm »

No, but in the transcript she talks a lot about about sandbox-style games which allow you to do the same to a woman that you can to a man.

Going off Granorkes quotes, she makes quite a big deal out of violence acts that are governed by a single set of game physics when they impact female characters.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2518 on: June 16, 2014, 01:51:20 pm »

No, but in the transcript she talks a lot about about sandbox-style games which allow you to do the same to a woman that you can to a man.

Going off Granorkes quotes, she makes quite a big deal out of violence acts that are governed by a single set of game physics when they impact female characters.

Odd... wasn't one of her points LAST video that games should have more "generic female goons"?
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2519 on: June 16, 2014, 02:01:10 pm »

@Graknorke:

I must say I agree with a lot of the points you mentioned, but at the same time, there's a few I think you misunderstood. Specifically, the Hitman clip; I think she's saying that there could be other, better reasons for the mission than yet another 'damsel in distress-ingly pornographic situations'.

Other than that, though, and similar things, she seems to be saying violence should only be allowed against men in video games, for sandbox ones. Which seems...counter-intuitive.
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