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[Neonivek]

I honestly don't think Beyond Good and Evil selling badly had much to do with the female protagonist. I think its issue is how it marketed itself as a niche game and should have instead showed off its more typical assets. Even at the time I never thought much of Beyond Good and Evil, heck even now I doubt it is as good as people say it is (Psychonauts certainly was only 50% of the game people hype it to be)

Though I always like to say the reason why a lot of games with female protagonists sell badly isn't because they are female protagonists but because those games are terrible.

The problem with female protagonists is that they are treated like either fan service or as a token. So how good are games where the fan service or where token gimmicks are forefront?

Yet these are the important arguments that need to be made. Dinosaur Planet was changed because Starfox adventures was seen as the more profitable game. So prove that the female stigma is false or find the umbrella that can shield these games from the common pitfalls.

[penguinofhonor]

Anita is saying it had a very good female lead, but it was marketed poorly, so... what? What's your point?

[Neonivek]

Anita is saying it had a very good female lead, but it was marketed poorly, so... what? What's your point?

She never said it was marketed poorly. I said it was marketed poorly.

Though I find it funny that you are holding me up to a higher level then Anita. It is her job to make that argument.

Heck prove me wrong? Prove my point?

I can watch her videos and at the same time be cognoscente of them.

[penguinofhonor]

I'm not trying to hold your argument up to any level or prove it wrong or whatever. I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Neonivek]

I'm not trying to hold your argument up to any level or prove it wrong or whatever. I genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say.

I am saying nothing. Just that it is sort of funny.

It is one of those things that you go "Ohh yeah, that makes sense!" Until you think about it.

[alexandertnt]

No, since it wasn't the industry that made Beyond Good and Evil sell badly.

Ah yes, I suppose. Its more just the general market conditions that led to its poor sales.

I still dont see the irony though.

[Max White]

Anita is saying it had a very good female lead, but it was marketed poorly, so... what? What's your point?

Is she?

Anyway, yes, console games focused towards women, with things the way they currently are, will receive less marketing money and therefor more likely to be marketed poorly, because there is much less of a market. Women just don't own as many consoles.

The point is if you want something to sell well, do what Dark Souls did and know your fucking market. Then there will be a lot less 'BOO HOO NO FEMALE PROTAGONISTS!' and a lot more industry growth.

I still dont see the irony though.

The irony is saying more games should aspire to be like a commercial failure. Anybody actually in the industry is going to laugh and go back to making Halos of War: Medal of Duty.

[penguinofhonor]

Ooh, I'm going to use that line in the next discussion of Moby Dick I'm in. "It's ironic to aspire to be like a commercial failure."

Honestly, though, this sounds more like a way to discredit her example without actually arguing against it.

[Neonivek]

Ooh, I'm going to use that line in the next discussion of Moby Dick I'm in. "It's ironic to aspire to be like a commercial failure."

Honestly, though, this sounds more like a way to discredit her example without actually arguing against it.

No.

"sounds like"

Exactly.

[Max White]

Ooh, I'm going to use that line in the next discussion of Moby Dick I'm in. "It's ironic to aspire to be like a commercial failure."

Honestly, though, this sounds more like a way to discredit her example without actually arguing against it.

Do it. Be sure to tell me what they say.

Anyway, if you tell people to do something that everybody knows has historically lost money, they just won't listen. If you explain how changing your budgeting practice will allow you to crack open new markets and bring in more profit, and as a by product women get better representation in games, they will be all over it.

[Neonivek]

Also if you want me to argue against her example within the very realm she gave it.

The problem is her example is muddled and confused. She never compromises on women being deprived of autonomy except when Beyond Good and Evil does it.

Yet the differences remain unexplored.

Thus the answer is she is against non-protagonist damsels. Which means you have to go back on her work and edit what she says. She is against someone other then the woman getting the spotlight for saving her.

That is her real argument. Yet to get to this I had to actually do a lot of deductive reasoning, which for a work that is meant to be "educational" that is a rather poor job.

She teaches like an elementary school teacher with history. What they are telling you is a complete fabrication based on the truth they want to convey. They aren't wrong, but they are untoward.

[Max White]

If by 'deprived of autonomy' you mean briefly held by a monster to be freed soon after so she can go on ass kicking.
Because you know, that is a deep enough vessel to explore some character depth. Not saying that in the Mario series Peach is captured because of some compelling story, but the potential for a compelling story through deprival of autonomy is there. Heck every WWII drama depends on it.

[Neonivek]

She isn't against loss of autonomy (sort of... she is confusing) she is against it when it doesn't serve her story.

Which for the most part is a great argument for male/female segregation in games.

Except that would be a problem too.

The problem arises when she sort of bolts down what is considered "Fair use" of a female character. To Anita a female character cannot be a foil or mirror of the main character.

Which as you know, for story telling is usually the point of side characters.

[Max White]

Well yea, she is all for a loss of agency when it comes to the male damsel. That is fine. Female damsel? Heck no!

[Neonivek]

Well yea, she is all for a loss of agency when it comes to the male damsel. That is fine. Female damsel? Heck no!

Well that is because she prescribes to the school of "If you punch a healthy person, it isn't physical abuse"

Well ok that, and most of the time there are differences between male and female damsels... MIND YOU she barely explores it.

She focuses quite a bit more on "How it doesn't show negative stereotypes towards males" and not enough on how male and female damsels actually act.

Which is where her gold material should have come from.