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[Max White]

If you don't enjoy the topic, why even bother to come in other than to shit all over the conversation we are having and imply it is a horrible thing for us to be allowed to discuss?

[Vector]

If you don't enjoy the topic, why even bother to come in other than to shit all over the conversation we are having and imply it is a horrible thing for us to be allowed to discuss?

Oh?

I enjoy the topic.  In fact, I love the topic of sexual relations in media.  I don't enjoy the nitpicking, bashing, and general lack of polite or even-handed discussion.  As much as I'd like to participate, the water is too bloody to get in.

[Putnam]

I am kinda wondering how "strong-jawed very-fit warrior" is an equivalent stereotype to "that guy's girlfriend who gets kidnapped"

[Max White]

I enjoy the topic.  In fact, I love the topic of sexual relations in media.  I don't enjoy the nitpicking, bashing, and general lack of polite or even-handed discussion.  As much as I'd like to participate, the water is too bloody to get in.

Then I'm left to wonder why you jumped in... You hate this topic? Well lucky for you I'm not going to hold a gun to your head and make you read it. Nobody is. Let us have our dirty, bloody filled bath and go enjoy your ideals in a place where people won't attack them. If you don't think this platform is even handed, there are others out there where people will praise your enlightenment and chastise anybody who dares question you.

I am kinda wondering how "strong-jawed very-fit warrior" is an equivalent stereotype to "that guy's girlfriend who gets kidnapped"

Because of a separate game, apparently.

[Willfor]

Max, please stop being a bulldog who just caught onto a foot, and can't resist biting at it for all it's worth. It's basically what she's talking about to begin with, and now you're doing it again.

(I realize this is a negative stereotype for bulldogs, they are not this aggressive)

[alexandertnt]

And do you really think that single sentence actually covers enough of this original game to make the argument you are trying to make? Heck she doesn't even tell us that the damsel was only female. Were it not for this thread I might be mistaken into thinking it worked the same.

I think any reasonable person can work out that it is a parody without reference to the original game. So I think that one sentence (and video clip) is more than enough.

Because of a separate game, apparently.

The "seperate game" only helps demonstrate that the remake's potrayel of damsels is parody. It would be (pretty clear) parody regardless of its existance, and the point she made is unaffected by its existance.

I am kinda wondering how "strong-jawed very-fit warrior" is an equivalent stereotype to "that guy's girlfriend who gets kidnapped"

The big-brested women (humerous appeal to stereotype male desires) versus the ripped man (humerous appeal to stereotype female desires). Its pretty clear.

[Max White]

By reasonable person, you mean anybody assuming Anita is right and will find any reason to agree. Other people like to go off the evidence given, but they must be unreasonable? To ask for a well structured argument, how unreasonable.

Max, please stop being a bulldog who just caught onto a foot, and can't resist biting at it for all it's worth. It's basically what she's talking about to begin with, and now you're doing it again.

If she hates the discussion, there is a very simple solution.

[Vector]

If you don't think this platform is even handed, there are others out there where people will praise your enlightenment and chastise anybody who dares question you.

Ah, so the issue is that I can't converse on a topic unless people are praising me.

My friend Max White is correct, as usual.  As he remarks so even-handedly, I am a narcissist and above reproach.  Therefore I will flee the thread and leave him to his polite discussion of my character, to somewhere where my ideals will not receive scrutiny.

By reasonable person, you mean anybody assuming Anita is right and will find any reason to agree. Other people like to go off the evidence given, but they must be unreasonable? To ask for a well structured argument, how unreasonable.

You're right again!  My goodness, how does he keep on doing it?  Of course nitpicking and failing to give the opposition any ground or consideration is a sign of a well-structured argument!  Why, it goes back to Socrates.  That's why I'm here engaging in attacks of character--because that's the best way to explain to someone that their opinion is incorrect.

[alexandertnt]

By reasonable person, you mean anybody assuming Anita is right and will find any reason to agree. Other people like to go off the evidence given, but they must be unreasonable? To ask for a well structured argument, how unreasonable.

Thats not what I said at all. By reasonable person, I mean someone who can work out that the remake is parodying the damsel in distress. It has no bearing on the correctness/incorrectness of her point on the harm of parody.

[Rolan7]

I hope we can move past Spelunky before we get any more bogged down and personal.

Personally, I'd rather discuss the parody cakes and whether they actually strengthen or weaken the stereotypes they parody...

[Max White]

Thats not what I said at all. By reasonable person, I mean someone who can work out that the remake is parodying the damsel in distress. It has no bearing on the correctness/incorrectness of her point on the harm of parody.

Once again, why do you assume that any male in distress is just a parody of a female?
I mean it can't be because of the prior game, OR THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN STATED. Heck does she even try to say that the male is a parody of the female?

I hope we can move past Spelunky before we get any more bogged down and personal.

Personally, I'd rather discuss the parody cakes and whether they actually strengthen or weaken the stereotypes they parody...

Well when she outright sets a double standard, that is going to get some attention. Two identical characters, one males and one female, and the female role is unacceptable. I would call that sexist.

Although her analysis of a parody is bullshit too. Starship Troopers, all over again. It didn't subvert the thing it was parodying, and it wasn't making fun of an issue no longer relevant, so her point doesn't stand for other types of parody. She clearly doesn't understand the topic.

[GlyphGryph]

Okay, so I skipped the last couple of pages when Max White started making stuff up and ignoring the point that was being made, and Neonivek jumped in to support him despite having clearly not watched the video. Was anything of actual importance said?

Responding to the last bullshit I've seen: Neonivek, if you haven't watched the video yet, DO IT before criticizing shit.

Max, consider watching the video and actually trying to understand what she is saying instead of merely using it as an excuse to attack her. If you even watched the video at all - I'm not sure you did, because you're points seemed pretty irrelevant as well. The point of the video is that, as you seem to repeatedly and pointedly fail to understand it is the trope that is the problem, not the particular instance, and thus having the OPTION to switch to having male damsels does not make it NOT reinforce negative sexist stereotypes.

Especially since the only reason that stuff even EXISTS was because of accusations of sexism in the original version.

Also, has Neonivek responded to the people missing the point by claiming that parodies can't reinforce or affectionately support the thing they are parodying? Something being over the top or ironic doesn't mean it's not using or promoting sexist tropes.

Just like hipsters purchasing things "ironically" in bulk STILL leads to the people making those things making money and often making more of them, if only to appeal to the hipster crowd. Even if it's "ironic", it's still supporting the system.

This isn't to say all parodies do this. But it's certainly pretty common! And Starship troopers as actually a good example, because despite being an obvious parody AND a satire (and not an overly affectionate one, it had some pretty sharp barbs in there), it still ended up supporting lots of jingoistic attitudes.

Well when she outright sets a double standard, that is going to get some attention. Two identical characters, one males and one female, and the female role is unacceptable. I would call that sexist.

Because you're ignoring context. The character's aren't actually identical, even in miniature, and DEFINITELY not as part of the larger social context in which they appear.

[Max White]

Except I don't agree that the trope is a problem.

EDIT: And in response to your edit, have you even played the game? Yes the two characters are exactly the same in everything but sprite and voice, and neither one sprite nor voice is any worse than the other. They behave exactly the same. In miniature they are identical.

Now if there was only a 'male' or 'dog' option, would that be better, in our larger social context?

[GlyphGryph]

That's incredibly obvious, yes. It's been your only and single argument since this thread began. You haven't done much to support it, mostly mounted your attacks based on it, but yes, that is definitely an opinion that you have there.

And this is the problem - You've taken every attempt to discredit her conclusions and logic, because you disagree with her assumptions.

This is dishonest and unproductive. You're not here for meaningful conversation, you're here to make meaningful conversation impossible with a bunch of tangential nitpicking you don't even give a fuck about, because you don't think it's a conversation people should have, on account of your disagreeing with the very basic premise of the argument. That is what we call a "dick move".

[Neonivek]

Also, has Neonivek responded to the people missing the point by claiming that parodies can't reinforce or affectionately support the thing they are parodying?

Yes, I am in fact the one who came up with the nickname: Parody Cake

Neonivek, if you haven't watched the video yet, DO IT before criticizing shit

I've kept it isolated to the sections I know of. I am certainly not going to talk about the crux of her arguments in the third.