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[alexandertnt]

⁴Because it is ok when they have a penis.

She outright says it is ok to treat male characters one way, and not ok to treat females the exact same way.

No, she does not say it bad because "penis", she says it is bad as it enforces a stereotype. She says it is OK to do this to a male because it does not reinforce a stereotype, not because they are male.

Again because one reinforces pre-existing stereotypes about women, while the other does not re-enforce any pre-existing stereotypes about men.

[Rolan7]

You think the damsels in Spelunky is a problem because they are 'heavily gendered'?
Wow... That is just a downright lie. The treatment of the damsel has nothing to do with her gender, as evident from the male mirror image standing next to her.

Anyway, she says, and I quote:

This¹ is still a problem² while this³ is not⁴.

¹The female damse
²Due to her treatment of being thrown about and killed like a rag doll
³The Male damsel
⁴Because it is ok when they have a penis.

She outright says it is ok to treat male characters one way, and not ok to treat females the exact same way.

Exactly, because the context is important.  The woman damsel is a perpetuation of a very common stereotype, the male damsel is not.

Though, Anita did choose a terrible example in Spelunky.  Both (all three) damsels are pretty clearly jokes.  The female damsel is making fun of traditional damsels, the male damsel is making fun of her.  In my opinion it's fine because it's parody.

But yes:

She outright says it is ok to treat male characters one way, and not ok to treat females the exact same way.

She is saying this, and its true.  This one game is just a bad example.

[Max White]

No, she does not say it bad because "penis", she says it is bad as it enforces a stereotype. She says it is OK to do this to a male because it does not reinforce a stereotype, not because they are male.

Why I do believe I have already hit that nail.

So I'm looking at this guy with rock hard abs, perfect blonde hair and a jaw line that roman statues would envy...

This don't portray a stereotype for men!

Yea, sure.
The reason that there is less a problem with the male stereotype is because there are other highly visible portrays of men out there for us to reflect on. This is less so for women. Solution? Not to cut the female damsel out of out media, leaving only the capable Jades of the world, but to give women more diverse representation. A point Anita either doesn't want to mention, or more likely doesn't understand.

It is always ok to treat both your characters the same regardless of gender. That is what equity means.

[Rolan7]

Yes, but context affects the actual message.  Saying the same words to two different people can mean very different things.

[Max White]

Yes, but context affects the actual message.  Saying the same words to two different people can mean very different things.

Do you actually believe that the two damsels in Spelunky send different messages? Praise tell, what are those messages?

[Rolan7]

Though, Anita did choose a terrible example in Spelunky.  Both (all three) damsels are pretty clearly jokes.  The female damsel is making fun of traditional damsels, the male damsel is making fun of her.  In my opinion it's fine because it's parody.

[Max White]

So the male damsel is just a joke on the female damsel?
I think this says a lot more about you than the game, I never read that from him. I just figured the joke was seeing these people running about like fools and falling on spikes, regardless of their gender.

[alexandertnt]

Yes, but context affects the actual message.  Saying the same words to two different people can mean very different things.

Do you actually believe that the two damsels in Spelunky send different messages? Praise tell, what are those messages?

They do not produce two different messages, rather, the whole thing, having a male character as a humerous option sends one message overall: "Hey, we replaced the weak, helpless damsel with a male. Get it? Because females are usually the weak helpless damsel, and its humerously unusual to have a male instead".

The "Because females are usually the weak helpless damsel, and its humerously unusual to have a male instead" is the cultural context part.

What might make it more balanced is if the male damsel wasnt there for humour. Then it would just be "Save these people".

Though, Anita did choose a terrible example in Spelunky.  Both (all three) damsels are pretty clearly jokes.  The female damsel is making fun of traditional damsels, the male damsel is making fun of her.  In my opinion it's fine because it's parody.

This is relevant:

Words like “parody” and “satire” are often thrown around to describe or defend these comedic depictions of yet more helpless female characters. But a simple wink and nod to the audience acknowledging a sexist trope, while actively reproducing that trope, does not automatically grant a free pass to continue exploiting the trope.

I actually am not sure how much I agree with that though. I find it amusing but she does make a point. I wonder how female gamers in general feel about it in contrast to male gamers?

[Rolan7]

So the male damsel is just a joke on the female damsel?
I think this says a lot more about you than the game, I never read that from him. I just figured the joke was seeing these people running about like fools and falling on spikes, regardless of their gender.

It's fine, you didn't play the original game.  The male damsel wasn't in the first game, and the female one looked almost exactly the same.  This new male damsel is a simple gender swap of the female one.  So yes, the male damsel is a parody of the female damsel.

[Max White]

"Hey, we replaced the weak, helpless damsel with a male. Get it? Because females are usually the weak helpless damsel, and its humerously unusual to have a male instead"

The "Because females are usually the weak helpless damsel, and its humerously unusual to have a male instead" is the cultural context part.

Look, if he was wearing a dress I would see how that would apply, but honestly I think the fact that you equate a weak and silly male to a fill in for a female is more to do with your prejudice than the games.

It's fine, you didn't play the original game.  The male damsel wasn't in the first game, and the female one looked almost exactly the same.  This new male damsel is a simple gender swap of the female one.  So yes, the male damsel is a parody of the female damsel.

Did Anita raise that point in her vidoes? She doesn't even reference the original game. If we are trying to depict her meaning, we should go off what she says instead of trying to adapt our own ideals. If she thought the male damsel was just a parody of the female, she could have said that. She didn't, instead just leaving it at 'It's ok because penis!'

[alexandertnt]

"Hey, we replaced the weak, helpless damsel with a male. Get it? Because females are usually the weak helpless damsel, and its humerously unusual to have a male instead"
The "Because females are usually the weak helpless damsel, and its humerously unusual to have a male instead" is the cultural context part.

Look, if he was wearing a dress I would see how that would apply, but honestly I think the fact that you equate a weak and silly male to a fill in for a female is more to do with your prejudice than the games.

I think it has to do with having acutually played the original game, not "prejudice ". The use of a male damsel also parodies the original game.

She doesn't even reference the original game

Originally released in 2009 the game included a stereotypical damsel in distress as a gameplay mechanic whose rescue rewarded the player with bonus health. The 2012 HD remake of the game *etc*

[Rolan7]

Words like “parody” and “satire” are often thrown around to describe or defend these comedic depictions of yet more helpless female characters. But a simple wink and nod to the audience acknowledging a sexist trope, while actively reproducing that trope, does not automatically grant a free pass to continue exploiting the trope.

That's true.  And I think a lot of this parody really is a way to get cheap laughs. 

However, I think that by getting these cheap laughs at the expense of the tropes, these parody games are exposing how ridiculous the tropes are.  When I see a modern video game use the damsel trope I groan, and I think that's partially due to how much it has been parodied.

Did Anita raise that point in her vidoes? She doesn't even reference the original game. If we are trying to depict her meaning, we should go off what she says instead of trying to adapt our own ideals. If she thought the male damsel was just a parody of the female, she could have said that. She didn't, instead just leaving it at 'It's ok because penis!'

She actually did reference the original game.  She contrasts the new damsel choices to the old one.  She also makes a terrible point about the dog option... I did say she chose a bad example.  Seriously though, the male damsel is pretty clearly a parody of the female one, aesthetically.  It's just more obvious if you're familiar with the original version.

[Vector]

I really hate this thread.

[Max White]

I think it has to do with having acutually played the original game, not "prejudice ". The use of a male damsel also parodies the original game.

She doesn't even reference the original game

Originally released in 2009 the game included a stereotypical damsel in distress as a gameplay mechanic whose rescue rewarded the player with bonus health. The 2012 HD remake of the game *etc*

And do you really think that single sentence actually covers enough of this original game to make the argument you are trying to make? Heck she doesn't even tell us that the damsel was only female. Were it not for this thread I might be mistaken into thinking it worked the same.

I really hate this thread.

Yea I hate free exchange of ideals too. What good has that ever done anybody?

[Vector]

Seriously, Max White?  Way to put words in my mouth.

Vector doesn't enjoy the conversation!  This must mean that Vector hates free speech.