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[Max White]

Well because this is a thread dedicated to her video series, so I kind of feel like the topic invites people to be nit picky about them.
It is kind of like if we had a thread about our favorite food, I would appear pretty nit picky about my food too.

EDIT: Wait, rereading that post

No.

The problem is that men are the heroes and villains and women are the collateral.  That is why it is a problem.  It is a problem because there are not other images of us available.

Do you mean "No, that isn't fair, here is what the actual problem is" or "No, what you are saying isn't correct, here is why you are wrong"

I read it as the second, but on reread you could very well have meant the first. I'm not sure now. Could just be me being a little over defensive?

[Neonivek]

Why are you so busy nit-picking the video series if you've already decided she's wrong?

Because this is how you form opinions Vector. You may have a notion inside your head that someone is wrong, but you cannot just assume they are wrong. You have to actually listen to them, analyse what they see, see if what they said is right, and if it is why?, Are you sure it is true? why do you think so? Can we sleep on it?

What does it matter?

Equality for men and women and equal representations in videogames. Seems quite important.

Do you not have anyone better to roast?

Actually at this moment... No. She is the best person to "roast" as her videos have the largest audience, she is popular enough that things she says gets articles on major gaming sites, and people take her seriously.

Are you seriously not getting bored?

Are you kidding? Analyzing things is what I do for fun.

I get honest to goodness entertainment value from analysis.

No, my complaint is that range of portrayals is severely limited for women across media in general.

Such as?

This is a problem because humans pretty much run off of something called the availability heuristic, which means that people think things for which they can think of examples are far more prevalent than those things for which they can't.

I do have a major library of videogames and I do analyze characters for fun. So any minor point in most of these games, I've pretty much analyzed. So I only have to remind myself in order to remember.

This thought process translates into real-world problems

The issue here is that just because something is overused it doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem. You must first state a problem and then a solution.

By suggesting that this imbalance "may be causing problems" you are allowing weakness into your argument. It is why I like to use weak plot and weak characterization to support my arguments, because they can be argued more objectively.

As well when you provide no solution other then "More female heroes" you actually lose track of the real underlying assumption that proliferates this. Which is that people do not have faith in female protagonist.

That is why I brought up female protagonists in terrible videogames. In order to draw attention to one of the reasons why people don't have faith in videogames with female protagonists... Because they are often absolutely terrible fan service games. Thus the solution of more female protagonists can be argued that the perception of the lack of marketability is a myth created because of the tendencies for female protagonists to be in these kinds of games... and a well supported game can easily have female protagonists.

---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek

More then a Damsel in a Dress

[Rolan7]

I think there is a bit of a disconnect here. When she says "Games don’t exist in a vacuum and therefore can’t be divorced from the larger cultural context of the real world.", the 'larger cultural context of the real world' isn't a reference to how common a trope is. When she then goes on to talk about domestic violence in real life, I think it is safe to say that this larger cultural context of the real world is real life violence against women.

Good point.  I don't think it's clear what she meant, you very well might be right.

She isn't saying "In the real world there are a lot of games with violence against women, and this has become so prevalent it is a problem", but rather she is saying "In the real world there is violence against women, therefor games that include violence done to women, even those that attempt to justify it by having this violence make sense in the context of the narrative, are a problem"

I have to disagree with this, though.  The quoted example was a weak example, I'll admit.  It still seems clear from the other examples I provided that the *prevalence* of women being mercy-killed in video games, not the *existence* of such situations, is the problem.

That is a lot more along the lines of "It should never happen" than "It shouldn't happen this much".


And is that really fair? In real life people of both genders are beaten, robbed, murdered, tortured, raped and so on. Why do we narrow the focus to only include women? Surly if a woman being killed unjustly is wrong in a game because of the real life parallels, then it is wrong when it happens to a man too, right? So where does that leave us?

To be honest, I really hate gender in real life.  I wish people were treated equally regardless of gender, particularly in criminal cases.  To be *overly* honest, a male in my family was recently arrested for being in a fight he didn't initiate.

I don't blame women, I blame the system.  I do, however, think that sexist tropes in video games are *part* of the system and the problem.

Edit: I said "you" when I meant "she".

[Neonivek]

Mostly Rolan7 I believe that discussing these issues does two things
1) It allows people to see other ways certain tropes and narratives can be used.
and
2) It allows people to see how terrible certain tropes really are.

The Chainmail bikini for example was always stupid, but I fully believe its diminishing (very slow diminishing) existence is entirely due to people talking about it and realizing "Hey, that is really dumb... what the heck creators?"

[Max White]

I have to disagree with this, though.  The quoted example was a weak example, I'll admit.  It still seems clear from the other examples I provided that the *prevalence* of women being mercy-killed in video games, not the *existence* of such situations, is the problem.

Well then lets go through the other examples you provided.

Despite these troubling implications, game creators aren’t necessarily all sitting around twirling their nefarious looking mustaches while consciously trying to figure out how to best misrepresent women as part of some grand conspiracy.

Most probably just haven’t given much thought to the underlying messages their games are sending and in many cases developers have backed themselves into a corner with their own game mechanics.  When violence is the primary gameplay mechanic and therefore the primary way that the player engages with the game-world it severely limits the options for problem solving. The player is then forced to use violence to deal with almost all situations because its the only meaningful mechanic available — even if that means beating up or killing the women they are meant to love or care about.

I don't exactly see how this is saying the problem is that these games are too prevalent. She is saying that games where women experience violence are misrepresenting women, therefor games shouldn't include women experiencing violence. She then goes on to say that violence against women in games is most likely caused by the fact that violence is a common game mechanic, but that doesn't actually speak to their prevalence (And it actually very misleading, as the vast, vast majority of examples given the the fridge trope happen in cut scenes that are except from game mechanics)

Explaining this isn't a conspiracy isn't saying the problem is that it happens too often.

One of the really insidious things about systemic & institutional sexism is that most often regressive attitudes and harmful gender stereotypes are perpetuated and maintained unintentionally.

Saying something has a mechanism behind it doesn't mean it is common.

So when developers exploit sensationalized images of brutalized, mutilated and victimized women over and over and over again it tends to reinforce the dominant gender paradigm which casts men as aggressive and commanding and frames women as subordinate and dependent.

Short version without emotive language: So when this tropes is present, it is sexist.
She is pretty much outright saying that any use of any of the tropes she presented are bad.

Consequently violent revenge based narratives, repeated ad nauseum, can also be harmful to men...

The “dark and edgy” trope-cocktails we’ve discussed in this episode are not isolated incidents, or obscure anomalies; instead they represent an ongoing recurring pattern in modern gaming narratives.

Ok so we have two actual examples of her saying these tropes are common, but presented in a way that is a counter point to people saying "Yea but it isn't as big a problem because it isn't common!"
They are not 'isolated incidents', as in this is a really bad thing that keeps happening, as opposed to this is a thing that has happened until it became a problem.

[Rolan7]

I have to disagree with this, though.  The quoted example was a weak example, I'll admit.  It still seems clear from the other examples I provided that the *prevalence* of women being mercy-killed in video games, not the *existence* of such situations, is the problem.

Well then lets go through the other examples you provided.

Despite these troubling implications, game creators aren’t necessarily all sitting around twirling their nefarious looking mustaches while consciously trying to figure out how to best misrepresent women as part of some grand conspiracy.

Most probably just haven’t given much thought to the underlying messages their games are sending and in many cases developers have backed themselves into a corner with their own game mechanics.  When violence is the primary gameplay mechanic and therefore the primary way that the player engages with the game-world it severely limits the options for problem solving. The player is then forced to use violence to deal with almost all situations because its the only meaningful mechanic available — even if that means beating up or killing the women they are meant to love or care about.

I don't exactly see how this is saying the problem is that these games are too prevalent. She is saying that games where women experience violence are misrepresenting women, therefor games shouldn't include women experiencing violence. She then goes on to say that violence against women in games is most likely caused by the fact that violence is a common game mechanic, but that doesn't actually speak to their prevalence (And it actually very misleading, as the vast, vast majority of examples given the the fridge trope happen in cut scenes that are except from game mechanics)

Explaining this isn't a conspiracy isn't saying the problem is that it happens too often.

True!  Some people were saying she was claiming an evil organized male conspiracy, I wanted to show a counterexample of that.

One of the really insidious things about systemic & institutional sexism is that most often regressive attitudes and harmful gender stereotypes are perpetuated and maintained unintentionally.

Saying something has a mechanism behind it doesn't mean it is common.

No, but saying that it's systemic implies that it's the prevalence that's the problem.  It's okay sometimes, but when it's systemic it's a problem.

So when developers exploit sensationalized images of brutalized, mutilated and victimized women over and over and over again it tends to reinforce the dominant gender paradigm which casts men as aggressive and commanding and frames women as subordinate and dependent.

Short version without emotive language: So when this tropes is present, it is sexist.
She is pretty much outright saying that any use of any of the tropes she presented are bad.

Well sorry no, she says "over and over again".  That's different than a trope being "present".

Consequently violent revenge based narratives, repeated ad nauseum, can also be harmful to men...

The “dark and edgy” trope-cocktails we’ve discussed in this episode are not isolated incidents, or obscure anomalies; instead they represent an ongoing recurring pattern in modern gaming narratives.

Ok so we have two actual examples of her saying these tropes are common, but presented in a way that is a counter point to people saying "Yea but it isn't as big a problem because it isn't common!"
They are not 'isolated incidents', as in this is a really bad thing that keeps happening, as opposed to this is a thing that has happened until it became a problem.

She's actually not just saying they're common.  She's saying their prevalence, something she has shown a lot of evidence for but not conclusively proven (since she is not conducting a full scientific study of thousands of video games), is damaging to males as well as women.

Which really resonates with me, honestly.  There's a reason I said I agree with a lot of Neonivek's points.  This sexist crap is really damaging to both genders.

[Vector]

Relevant research.

[Neonivek]

Apparently, Women Gamers Spend As Much Time And Money On Gaming As Male Counterparts. This is Surprising?

Wait what? This makes no... Ohh wait I see.

Misleading title made to make the viewer think it means something else entirely. Given they contradict their own premise in their own article.

[Skyrunner]

Any more video posts?

[Bauglir]

Apparently, Women Gamers Spend As Much Time And Money On Gaming As Male Counterparts. This is Surprising?

Wait what? This makes no... Ohh wait I see.

Misleading title made to make the viewer think it means something else entirely. Given they contradict their own premise in their own article.

Uh? Did we read the same article? Their premise is that it is unsurprising, and that it's silly to act as though it were (even though it is good that at least the truth is being acknowledged in the first place).

[ed boy]

My two coppers on the matter:

There is indeed tend to play very different roles in video games (and other forms of media), and are very underrepresented in protagonist roles. However, there is a very large influence on this which hardly ever gets mentioned, even though it is, in my opinion, the largest cause for such differences in gender representation.

There are an awful lot of people who believe that violence and hostility directed towards a woman is morally wrong and obscene. It's also the case that the vast majority of games put their protagonists and other important characters into situations where they are the target of violence. When females are put into such positions, it is often considered offensive and disgusting (or at least, a lot more often than when males are in such positions). One can see this vary a lot with the genre of game - games with brutal, violence-heavy gameplay tend to have almost all males in active roles, with females either non-existent or isolated to secondary roles where they are in no danger. At the other end of the spectrum, games without conflict tend to have a much smaller gender disparity (and most commonly of all, no canon gender).

Anita's latest video I don't like because it propagates this. At the start of the video, there is a disclaimer given about violence against women. Her other video doesn't have any disclaimer. The disclaimer isn't a warning about violence, it's a warning about violence against women - she clearly doesn't consider any of the violence against men so offensive. It's not a case of her putting in the warning only for those who hold such views either - when giving the disclaimer, she winces visibly when mentioning the violence, and describes the video as potentially unsafe for children due to the content of violence against women. She clearly considers depictions of violence against women in games to be obscene, yet complains that in games where violence against certain roles (such as the protagonist) is common, women are not placed in those roles.

[Rolan7]

That's a pretty good point.  Violence against women is generally considered worse than violence against men, or at least special.  That's probably why normal enemies in video games are almost always male, genderless, or inhuman monsters with female attributes.  I don't mean unrealistically large breasts here, I'm mainly thinking of driders and lamias and things.  Monstergirls (exotic sex objects).

It's a real problem.  I'm having real trouble thinking of games where the waves of human enemies include females.  Fallout and The Elder Scrolls pass, there are plenty of female bandits.  Any others?  I want to say Half Life, but the assassins (in their form-fitting catsuits) only appear, by themselves, in two special arenas - mini boss fights.  They were cut entirely from Half Life 2 despite being present in the leaked alpha.

Video games imply that, in armies of thousands, it may be possible for 1-3 women to join.  They get special treatment by exclusively being boss fights.  They also wear the most irrational, slutty outfits - an implied explanation of why they get to skip to the top of the command structure.  (The good guys are allowed to have lots of women, since the entire friendly army exists to support the protagonist).

I guess my point is that all-male cannon fodder does nothing good for gender equality.

However, I have to disagree with your criticism of Anita here...

I just want to caution viewers that as we delve into more modern games we will be discussing examples that employ some particularly gruesome and graphic depictions of violence against women. I’ll do my best to only show what is necessary but this episode does come with a trigger warning. It’s also recommended that parents preview the video first before sharing with younger children.

The video contains a lot of gruesome and violent scenes.  Yes, they're against women, but only because the video is about female damsels.  She doesn't try to make the point that violence against women is any worse than violence against men.  It's the context of the violence: female characters are used, very commonly, as plot devices to cheaply provoke sympathy and establish villainy.  Having the player fight female soldiers along with male ones wouldn't be such a plot device, it'd be normal combat.

There are *also* unfortunate implications to all the possessed/manipulated women that have to beaten back to their senses.  (It would be just as unfortunate if it happened in reverse, too, like it does in real life.  Slapping is a type of physical abuse regardless of gender.)  It's really a double whammy:
1) The victim is robbed of all agency, and typically the victim is a woman being psychically or biologically overpowered by a male.  Often a seductive female will control a male, yes, but seduction is different than domination. 
2) The victim, generally in a romantic relationship with a male protagonist, has to be physically assaulted until she loves him again.

If this happened occasionally then it would just be creativity.  The fact that it happens a lot means the symbolism is no coincidence: these video games, taken together, are acting out abusive relationships and putting players in the role of the abuser.  Followed by post-violence romance.

Heck, I think the mercy-killing is actually less offensive.  In those cases when the victim is asking to be killed, she's deliberately choosing to resist the control at all costs.  That's agency, of a sort.  So I have to disagree with Anita about Borderlands 2: the heroes, who have no romantic connection to either of the damsels, are helping the damsels *not* be used.  The "damsels" in question also do a lot to help the heroes, making it cooperation with actual decision-making characters.

[ed boy]

It's a real problem.  I'm having real trouble thinking of games where the waves of human enemies include females.  Fallout and The Elder Scrolls pass, there are plenty of female bandits.  Any others?  I want to say Half Life, but the assassins (in their form-fitting catsuits) only appear, by themselves, in two special arenas - mini boss fights.  They were cut entirely from Half Life 2 despite being present in the leaked alpha.

I've not played fallout, and the only elder scrolls game I've played is oblivion, and I wouldn't call that violent. Enemies just recoil when hit, and there is no gore or visible damage to them.

However, I have to disagree with your criticism of Anita here...

I just want to caution viewers that as we delve into more modern games we will be discussing examples that employ some particularly gruesome and graphic depictions of violence against women. I’ll do my best to only show what is necessary but this episode does come with a trigger warning. It’s also recommended that parents preview the video first before sharing with younger children.

The video contains a lot of gruesome and violent scenes.  Yes, they're against women, but only because the video is about female damsels.  She doesn't try to make the point that violence against women is any worse than violence against men.  It's the context of the violence: female characters are used, very commonly, as plot devices to cheaply provoke sympathy and establish villainy.  Having the player fight female soldiers along with male ones wouldn't be such a plot device, it'd be normal combat.

She has, in her other videos, included examples of violence against men many times, including violence more graphic than the stuff in her latest video. None of those got disclaimers, so she evidently doesn't consider violence in general to be so repulsive. When previously acceptable levels of violence are directed towards women, it suddenly becomes terrible. Although she doesn't say the words "violence against women is worse than violence against men", if she considered them equally bad either her latest video wouldn't have a disclaimer, it would have a different disclaimer, or more of her videos would have a disclaimer.

And yes, the death of women is often used for plot advancement. Males are also used in that situation, and when males die it tends to be in a lot more gruesome and degrading manner. Consider, for example, the god of war series. When the females die, it is in a manner that involves as few blows as possible, and without any visible injury(Athena,Hera[/URL). When the males die, it is a long process which involves them being graphically beaten and severely mutilated ([URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pt7MdLDd2A]Hercules,Hermes,Poseidon).  My game library is far more limited than the average gamer, but I can't think of a single game I've played where a female character has a gruesome death without there being a male character having a far more gruesome death.

[Neonivek]

when males die it tends to be in a lot more gruesome and degrading manner.

That has more to do with their roles in the plot.

Mind you I still remember how the woman dies in Silent Hill The Room.

[penguinofhonor]

DiD Part 3 is out.