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[Vector]

At least, that's what I took away from it. All armchair reasoning, or it would be if this damn office chair had arms... It's also possible that I've missed part of the conversation that made this whole double standards thing relevant, or the part of the video. Fallibility is definitely a thing that could be relevant here. So, sorry if I've mischaracterized any arguments here.

No, you're right.  You can look up "derailment" on a lot of feminist 101 blogs and get the same data you've suggested.

So I think that maybe if we worked on a simple message for boys and men: "It's okay feel natural emotions like anger and sorrow.  You're not a bad person for it" things could change a lot. I've had multiple people tell me I was less of a man for being unhappy that it got to a point that I couldn't deal with it (Although in my case I took this out on myself rather than another).

Sure!  I was just trying to start a conversation anyway, not give you the be all and end all of the message--whatever you think needs to be said, dude.


@Reelya:

The Daily Mail is a tabloid.  Everything they publish is sensationalism.  Let's not bring them in here, okay?  If you can find anything else at all I'll be happy to read it and discuss.  I know you know this, but I'd like to make that a general thread note.

As for your other point:

i raise an eyebrow at how you're suddenly not buying into the difficulty of convicting domestic abusers - but only skeptical based on the gender of the accused. If I was to state that male abusers aren't commonly convicted, I'm sure you wouldn't require citations.

That would be because I already know the data well-enough for male on female violence.  So I don't require your citation.  Because I could supply the citation.

Folks need to stop accusing me of being secretly sexist.  It's driving me up the wall.

Also the number of deaths on each side is broadly similar. So it shows they're buying the defense case much more readily for female killers than male killers.

All right.  Please give me data that show wives kill husbands as often as husbands kill wives, because all the data I've ever seen indicated that usually

a. Men kill their wives as part of domestic violence
b. Women kill their husbands as part of self-defence

And my data on domestic violence shows that, in general, men are not being sent to the hospital by their abusers.

If any of this is wrong, then I'm open to hearing it.  But your logic is, simply put, not really working for me right now.

In the british Crime Survey and Home Secretary Office's data, reported in the Guardian etc, the gap was much less than the 15-to-1. of the conviction rate. I think at least a third of all reported crimes had a female abuser.

 so that shows that the crimes with a male victim were far less likely to secure a conviction than the ones with a female victim.

... Excuse me, doesn't that cover crime in general?  1/3 having a female perpetrator does not mean that 1/3 of all domestic physical violence cases are perpetuated by a woman.

I just... look, if the data's not there, then the data's not there.  If you're trying to tell me that you don't have a study but you do know lots of men who have had problems getting convictions for women who beat them when they belittled her, then that's one thing.  But that's not what I hear you saying.

[Reelya]

Specifically it's the section of the BCS on domestic violence I'm referring too, goddamit. At least give me some credit. This is like, the 4th time i've linked it or something:

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

and here's another source citing the low conviction rate for domestic violence:

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2009/09/the_number_of_d

Ok, same country, same time-period. Similar reporting rate, vast gulf in convictions. The second link has a bit of spin on it, but by being aware of the first link, you can get a bigger picture.

NOW, is that enough for you to accept that there's data showing that women are less likely to be convicted?

[Vector]

Sorry, I got kind of used to the posts moving >_>

You may find this interesting, then--I can't find the article right now, but there was something that suggested that women who gain more power and influence also become more violent and abusive in general.  I think we, as a society, really need to rethink how we treat power relations and "justified" violence.

[Max White]

I'm thinking I could actually make a lot of money with a "Tropes vs Men" series, pointing out how Loki becomes the bad guy once he starts having to struggle with his emotions bought on from living in anothers shadow and belonging to a race of people generally seen as monsters, while Thor fills his boots as hero once he moves past his emotionally swayed prejudice and suppressed his ego.

Except blaming the tropes would be dishonest, so I won't.

[Vector]

I'm thinking I could actually make a lot of money with a "Tropes vs Men" series, pointing out how Loki becomes the bad guy once he starts having to struggle with his emotions bought on from living in anothers shadow and belonging to a race of people generally seen as monsters, while Thor fills his boots as hero once he moves past his emotionally swayed prejudice and suppressed his ego.

Well, to be honest, if you covered that then you'd actually be covering the shit that seems to be damaging dudes, rather than the usual "hurr, dudes are discriminated against equally and in exactly the same ways!" sort of thing.

No.  Bad things happen to both sexes.  They usually happen in different ways.  Usually fixing one will make things better for the other, even if it means losing unwarranted privileges to which one has been accustomed (for example: slaphappy ladies).  And so on, and so forth.

[Reelya]

a. Men kill their wives as part of domestic violence
b. Women kill their husbands as part of self-defence

I'd have to fish around to find more current statistics, but I don't think it's something that would show a massive skew in recent years - if it was near 50/50 20 years ago, i can't see it skewing to "only guys kill their wives" more recently, gender equality today is definitely better than 20 years ago, right? Or at least, i don't think modern America is massively more repressive than years gone by.

There was the article I posted a couple of pages ago, and i'll see what other data I can find. All the data which mentions gender of spousal murders is saying similar stuff, though, I can't find anything which presents any opposing data.

The rates have always been around 40% / 60%, so it's not quite 50/50 but it's not a massive disparity either, and remember that men are more likely to be convicted than women, so that does even it out a bit more when you consider the actual death rates, too.

http://www.uiowa.edu/~030116/158/articles/dershowitz3.htm
http://www.wildelife.com/worth/stats/stats2.html

And according to that, less than half the women accused claimed "self defense", so it's a bit of a stretch to say women "always" were battered - that's victim blaming the dead person, right?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim one gender is always to blame if they murder someone, and the other gender is always doing "self defense" if they do the same action. Especially when both genders can be shown to inflict psychological abuse on each other in similar quantities. And the frequency of physical attacks - it's not that different either. But males do, in fact inflict more damage. that part though, is purely due to strength differences. Both genders hit each other just as often, modern data shows.

[Vector]

No, I'm not saying women are always battered.  What I am trying to say, though, is that my data points to a particular narrative--which may be right, which may be wrong, (implied correct when speaking of averages) but if you've got different data then I'd like to see it.

[Max White]

Well, to be honest, if you covered that then you'd actually be covering the shit that seems to be damaging dudes, rather than the usual "hurr, dudes are discriminated against equally and in exactly the same ways!" sort of thing.

No.  Bad things happen to both sexes.  They usually happen in different ways.  Usually fixing one will make things better for the other, even if it means losing unwarranted privileges to which one has been accustomed (for example: slaphappy ladies).  And so on, and so forth.

Well, I wouldn't say pointing out so called "damaging" tropes about men is explicitly trying to imply that things are the same or as bad for guys, but I can see how some would interpret it like that. Another reason why it either shouldn't be, or at least shouldn't be by me.

Point is there is nothing wrong with the movie Thor, it is a great movie! It can be a little hard to find movies where men actually deal with their emotions beyond overcoming them like they were some sort of chain to break (Notable exception goes to Anger Management, who thought Adam Sandler would ever do anything to actually bring awareness to an issue?) but that doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong with current movies/games/books.

[Reelya]

Show me your data so I can check it out. I already linked some sources after you joined the discussion. And i've repeated them again, plus a new source just above.

you asked "please show me that data that wives kill their husband just as often" etc etc, the conviction data I linked about shows a reasonably similar conviction rate for wife and husband murderers. Plus, there is a lower conviction rate for the women, which evens it up more. Regardless of how you spin that, the overall "kill" numbers are fairly even.

EDIT: There seem to be a higher percentage spouse murders by women in the American statistics, than in countries with less of a gun culture, I'm wondering if guns tend to "even the score" a bit between the genders.

[DJ]

Statistics are skewed by the fact that men who claim self defence are almost never taken seriously.

[Vector]

What I'm trying to say is, I mostly saw a bunch of one-sided data out and about.  I'm not necessarily going to fully change my mind, but I am going to think about it more fully.  Thanks for providing links.

A big part of the problem is that I remember most of what I read but I don't remember exactly where I read it.

Well, I wouldn't say pointing out so called "damaging" tropes about men is explicitly trying to imply that things are the same or as bad for guys, but I can see how some would interpret it like that. Another reason why it either shouldn't be, or at least shouldn't be by me.

Ah, let me clarify:

There was already such a project suggested by MRAs.  You should look up "Tropes vs. Men in Videogames," there was a big fundraiser and everything.

Statistics are skewed by the fact that men who claim self defence are almost never taken seriously.

Because... women are considered too weak to be a threat ._.  It just goes round and round to the same old stupid problems, doesn't it?

[DJ]

Yeah, them poor women getting preferential treatment in domestic violence cases, it's so unfair to them.

[Neonivek]

Yeah, them poor women getting preferential treatment in domestic violence cases, it's so unfair to them.

It can be... Treating someone like they were victimized when they weren't can have the effect of making them feel victimized. It has some of the most unfortunate consequences.

[DJ]

Seriously, you have institutionalized discrimination going on and your biggest worry is hurting the feeling of the group that gets preferential treatment?

[Putnam]

are we seriously doing the discrimination olympics again