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[Rolan7]

I do believe that you're the ones that posted the initial thesis, which means the burden of proof is on you. Shouldn't be a problem because it's easily provable, eh?

I showed that it's true for movies.  Why would tv shows be different?  That's my argument.
I'm tired of your sarcasm anyway, going to bed.

[Neonivek]

Ok, if a show where the majority of the characters are female
(lets say 90%) is a "female focused show" then the opposite of it must also be true.

I'm not sure that test would be an improvement over Bechdel. For example, harem shows would probably qualify as "female focused" by that criteria but I think it's reasonable to suggest that a show about one guy getting a dozen women probably isn't intended for a female audience.

There is more then one definition of female focused show.

Though in this case I am using the definition that Strawberry Shortcake is the Exemplar.

[DJ]

I'm not aware of motivation for joining the force of *any* characters in crime shows. Mostly because they're completely irrelevant, just like other personality aspects of them. Male and female characters alike tend to be cardboard cutouts, because ultimately they're not important beyond being a delivery vehicle for cringe-worthy puns.

@Rolan: I don't recall you conclusively proving anything.

[Neonivek]

Male and female characters alike tend to be cardboard cutouts, because ultimately they're not important beyond being a delivery vehicle for cringe-worthy puns.

Yes but that is another problem Anita doesn't really tackle within her videos.

Anita Sarkeesian is a radical feminist who uses the word patriarchy way too much and generally makes women out to be victims without providing any examples as to how we can fix the problems she describes

How about the fact that she rarely tells us WHY something is wrong she just relies on the word carrying the weight.

Once again... Peach. It will always drive me nuts.

WHY do you say she is being objectified? Because in the metaplot she is acted upon but doesn't act herself? But why does that mean she is being objectified? Because she is a trophy? WHY is she a trophy?

AHHH! Once again it is the largest part of contention between me and Anita's videos is that I really don't see the objectification she does, but she doesn't open up that part.

[AlleeCat]

Male and female characters alike tend to be cardboard cutouts, because ultimately they're not important beyond being a delivery vehicle for cringe-worthy puns.

Yes but that is another problem Anita doesn't really tackle within her videos.

And that's what I'm talking about when I say that most feminists completely ignore one gender in favor of the other.
People are people. Male, female or otherwise. You need to consider everyone or you're just as bad as the people you criticize.

[Rolan7]

I'm not aware of motivation for joining the force of *any* characters in crime shows. Mostly because they're completely irrelevant, just like other personality aspects of them. Male and female characters alike tend to be cardboard cutouts, because ultimately they're not important beyond being a delivery vehicle for cringe-worthy puns.

@Rolan: I don't recall you conclusively proving anything.

Look, if you want to argue that the Bechdel tests don't demonstrate a gender imbalance in movies, you could just say that.  Or you could argue that movies and tv shows aren't the same thing.  Vaguely questioning whatever we say without specifics isn't helpful to anyone.

[Vector]

I'll admit that some of those were motivations in novels.  Quite a number of them were lifted straight from TV shows, though.

Oh, like this one:

"Because I have a special gift for mathematics, my brother is captain on the force, and I'm depressed after my mother's death, so I needed a new lease on life.  I'm not sure if this one is right or not."

Or this one:

"I'm a crime writer and I need stories, but because I know how people think you need me."

Or this one:

"I get protection money from gangs."

(Taken from Numb3rs, Castle, and Person of Interest, with whatever Reese and Finch's motivations ended up being alongside.  Why yes... I do watch a lot of procedurals.)

You need to consider everyone or you're just as bad as the people you criticize.

Wow, you need to figure out who feminists are criticizing before you throw that allegation.

[Neonivek]

For the most part I like to let a feminist theory express itself before I dismiss it out of hand. Since there are fair ones that are just focused on female issues but where their methodology doesn't lend them to either circular logic or excluding others at hand.

For example Gail definition where sexism is only a general imbalance between genders towards the weaker side. to put it simply... Sexism only exists against women and there is no such thing as sexism towards males. It would be a feminist theory I'd just ignore off hand.

While another feminist I like listening to says that women are undervalued in society, especially ones without modern conveniences, and that if we were to look at a group and analyze them by time put towards activities, we can see situations where the efficiency of a group can be increased simply by lightening the work load of the women through use of technology. It is feminism as it is focused on females, but the methodology not only makes sense but it can be applied to males.

It really can just be the test of legitimacy. If a feminism does not apply also to men if you use the very same methodology, it likely wasn't a very good methodology. At least as far as I am concerned.

[DJ]

And throwing out vague buzzwords like they're facts isn't proof of anything. And it's not my job to prove they're false, it's your job to prove them true.

[Max White]

Hm, you're right, they should make two of the princesses main characters to balance out Finn and Jake.

NOOOO!!! NO AND NO AGAIN! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! That isn't the point! THE POINT!!!! THAT ISN'T IT!!!!!!!!!!
Ok so I'm fully aware that you were using hyperbole, I don't care. I feel like telling you why that is wrong. And here why that is wrong. There is nothing wrong with a male oriented show! You don't need to keep a tally board of the genders of each character. You can have two male protagonists and leave female characters on the wings. You are allowed to do this.

The problem would be if you proposed making a cartoon with two female protagonists and the guy who runs the network said "Well it is pretty good, but change the two girls to boys. We want boys to be able to relate to these characters."
And this happens in the games industry. And it sucks.

[Neonivek]

And throwing out vague buzzwords like they're facts isn't proof of anything. And it's not my job to prove they're false, it's your job to prove them true.

Buzzwords like what? What statement are you even arguing against?

I already proven my statement was more then just buzz words and opened them up to criticisms. Male Oriented Television means the opposite of Strawberry Shortcake... And that Teenage mutant ninja turtles would be an example of that.

[DJ]

That media in general are overwhelmingly male-targeted.

[Neonivek]

That media in general are overwhelmingly male-targeted.

Ohh I meant that Media in general has a large male cast compared to a female cast.

That was my definition of "Male focused", where the cast is made up of mostly males.

[Rolan7]

And throwing out vague buzzwords like they're facts isn't proof of anything. And it's not my job to prove they're false, it's your job to prove them true.

Buzzwords like what? What statement are you even arguing against?

I already proven my statement was more then just buzz words and opened them up to criticisms. Male Oriented Television means the opposite of Strawberry Shortcake... And that Teenage mutant ninja turtles would be an example of that.

Nah, he's talking to me.  He's saying the Bechdel test is a vague buzzword and that it's my duty to link him directly to it if I mention its conclusion.  Either that or he honestly doesn't know what it is!  So here, gain a basic education:
http://bechdeltest.com/statistics/

And no, it's not conclusive proof of anything.  I'm not writing a thesis, I was participating in a discussion and now it's dawn.

[Max White]

Bechdel test is used to determine what archetypes you fit into that determine why you enjoy Multi-User-Dungeons, right?