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[Max White]

Although I feel the Bechdel test is poorly suited towards games.
The thing about video games is that unlike other forms of media, many are focused entirely, 100% on the protagonist. The only two characters that do anything are the protagonist and antagonist. Nobody has conversations about anything unless it directly relates to the quest. This isn't true of all games, but most.
With that in mind, a lot of decent games would fail the Bechdel test  on both a male and female perspective. Toad and Mario never have a conversation that isn't about the princess, it is just "Oh I'm sorry, I'm not her. Good luck!"

You need a more specialized test for games. I like to go off "Is there a female character that amounts to more than what she means to the male character?"

[Neonivek]

To me the Bechdel Test was never made to be a REAL test. It is a mental exercise.

Also you are right Max White the Bechdel test is TERRIBLE for videogames.

For example the first Tomb Raider fails it because no one says anything.

[Cheeetar]

Let's see... at least three or four female characters, two viewpoint, two on the side, with at least two of those having narratives focused on themselves and their own development as people.  These characters would necessarily have a variety of relationships (I don't necessarily mean romantic) with other female characters, and all four of them would perform a variety of roles in the program.

So assuming that the same rules apply for a male oriented show, I'm having a bit of trouble thinking of male shows that qualify. I mean granted I don't watch a huge amount of tv, but still. Death Note counts, but if we are going into anime you are also going to have a much easier time finding female shows too. Short of that... I'm kind of drawing a blank.

Two recent male oriented shows that do qualify are Breaking Bad and Justified. I'd think of more, but I honestly don't watch all that much TV.

[LordBucket]

Yeah, you know how horror stuff always has the virgin and the whore, and how the whore dies
and the virgin is the last one standing until she finally succumbs?  That's not a neutral narrative at all.

Horror also routinely makes use of the Men are Expendable trope, but that doesn't mean the genre is "intended for women."

[Neonivek]

It is hard to think of male focused shows mostly because the vast majority of them are male focused.

At least if we consider the reverse of a female focused show.

[DJ]

You can't just throw statements around and expect people to accept them as facts.

[Neonivek]

You can't just throw statements around and expect people to accept them as facts.

Ok, if a show where the majority of the characters are female (lets say 90%) is a "female focused show" then the opposite of it must also be true. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles had exactly two female characters for example.

Which of course you CAN argue against me in this case. For example that shows with lots of male characters is such the norm that it would take something extra to be a truly male oriented show.

[DJ]

Still not getting any closer to widely accepted axioms.

[Neonivek]

Still not getting any closer to widely accepted axioms.

Well it is rather provable.

[Rolan7]

Hm, you're right, they should make two of the princesses main characters to balance out Finn and Jake.

The point isn't that it's sexist, it's that it's male-dominated.  Which is FINE, except that the entire medium is similarly male dominated.  I don't have concrete numbers for tv shows, but it's true for movies.  I thought the official website included tv shows as well as movies, but seems like not.

The Bechdel tests shows that a disturbing number of movies do not contain any interaction between women which doesn't center around men.  The reverse obviously isn't true, almost every movie have male characters discussing things or people who aren't women.

I tried to find out if NCIS passed.  I couldn't get a clear answer, but it seems like most episodes fail because the suspects (the subjects of most discussions) are nearly all male.  A weak fail, but still a case of male domination.

So DJ, are you claiming that TV shows are far more gender-neutral than movies?  I'd love to hear your argument.

[DJ]

I do believe that you're the ones that posted the initial thesis, which means the burden of proof is on you. Shouldn't be a problem because it's easily provable, eh?

[Neonivek]

Actually Adventure time has a lot of female characters (more then male ones) and even main female characters.

It is just that... Adventure time is the story of the adventures of Jake and Finn.

While the show has a strong focus on their female characters, the camera follows the heros.

"Shouldn't be a problem because it's easily provable, eh?"

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. The only reoccurring female characters are April and Erma.

Street Sharks... is there even a reoccurring female character in that show?

[Vector]

That's a good point about the procedurals and static roles.  However, they'll often have some minor character development.  For example, apparently in NCIS a female character shoots a rapist, turns in her badge, and leaves the program.  That is exactly what I am not looking for.

I don't mean character-driven.  I mean the very simple elements of motivation.  Motivation because of character traits, not centered around pregancy, rape, or tryin' to hook a man in and of themselves.

It's one thing to have problems trying to hook a man *because you're a pathological liar* or *because you don't think you have time for one but you want one anyway* or *because you are already married but dammit you want one more and you are going to get one* or *because having a partner would give you something to believe in and this is a terrible reason to hook a man* or *because you have motivation to his corporate secrets for your own ends and shit is complicated.*  It is another thing to Need A Man Because Biology And That's All You Live For Anyway.

"Why are you on the Force, Salazar?"
"Because I wanted to hook a man and realized that the criminals are killing all the good ones."
"Because I believe in Justice and I've got a family to support."
"Because I used to run with a gang and I got clean and realized I wanted revenge."
"Because I like having an excuse to kill people."
"Because I love mysteries."
"Because I was going to kill myself over something terrible I did, but I saw the sign and decided it was, well, a sign."
"Because I'm infiltrating you.  Teaches you to screw with my people."

Let's see... half are things I've seen in actual police stories as male motivations.  Three are variations on male motivations I've seen in crime stories.  One I made up completely.  These are pretty different from what women usually do!  They all have to do with ambitions and personal decisions, NOT with Terrified Reactions to Stuff Happening To You.

I want characterization, in other words, that doesn't have every layer of it mired in procreation.  Women are sentient, too.  I want them to stop treating us like brainless animals.

[LordBucket]

Ok, if a show where the majority of the characters are female
(lets say 90%) is a "female focused show" then the opposite of it must also be true.

I'm not sure that test would be an improvement over Bechdel. For example, harem shows would probably qualify as "female focused" by that criteria but I think it's reasonable to suggest that a show about one guy getting a dozen women probably isn't intended for a female audience.

[AlleeCat]

I'm going to put in my two cents here, admittedly only having read a few pages here.
I don't honestly think we need to worry as much about sexism in video games themselves. Instead I think we need to worry more about sexism in the gaming community. I will admit that it's gotten a little better in the past decade or so, but it's really not moving forward fast enough.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that while she may have a few good points, Anita Sarkeesian is a radical feminist who uses the word patriarchy way too much and generally makes women out to be victims without providing any examples as to how we can fix the problems she describes. It's too much of a 'we're oppressed, feel bad for us' mentality and I can't stand it. I honestly hate feminists in general, because they tend to only see one side of the issue; instead of acknowledging inequalities present in both genders, they act like only one gender has problems and the other just lives to exploit those problems. It's dumb. Don't be a feminist, be aware that its not just you that has problems.

All right.  Do you know of any trans female main characters outside of dating games?  I don't.

Also, is the Persona series a dating sim?

Er... I'm not sure if anyone pointed this out yet, but Naoto would be considered trans male, not female. Unless there's a trans female character in that game I'm not aware of.

Spoiler: Dangan Ronpa spoilers (click to show/hide)

Dangan Ronpa has a trans female character, and she's actually a major part of the story.