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[Neonivek]

Has she even explained WHY having a weak passive female character is even a bad thing other then "It is objectification to not have autonomy"?

Which once again I state... I don't actually agree with that premise in a plot sense.

[Max White]

The Duke Nukems I am referencing are the ones... Nobody likes.

Ok well ignoring those ones. I haven't played Duke Nukem Infinite Chronicals Revelations Forever, so I can't comment. I have played the others a bit, but got turned off. Not really because of any themes, just didn't find the gameplay engaging, so didn't bother with Forever.

Initial point still remains that using several of the games labeled Duke Nukem as an example of sexism is missing the point.

Has she even explained WHY having a weak passive female character is even a bad thing other then "It is objectification to not have autonomy"?

No, because she can't, because it isn't inherently bad.
She hasn't even explained why having a "weak" that is to say dependent character is objectification beyond "Guy rescues girl: Guy is subject, girl is object, therefor OBJECTIFICATION!"
Using that logic "I love you" is objectification, because "I" am the subject and "you" are the object.

[Neonivek]

Ohh goodness... I am not even referring to Duke Nukem Forever, these games were worse!

[Vector]

Always being the prize rather than someone you get to play as is a really shitty position to be in.  The fact that the symbol of strength, avenging her lover, is female is a good step.  But that is very different from the crowning motivation of the main character.

Mass Effect has literally changed my life.  It is the first time when I have played a game and thought: "Wow.  I am the target audience for this game.  A lot of this was done with the intent of making me happy."  There really is a dearth of games where women get to see themselves doing things.  If they're doing something, they're almost inevitably sexualized all to hell and back.  See games like Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, for an example that I've played.  Dudes get clothing.  Gals literally get stripper gear.  If you get a main character who's female and not wildly sexualized, then nearly all the side female characters will be sexualized.  The NPCs will be almost uniformly male; the female NPCs will often be prostitutes, in grittier worlds, or just more eye-candy--not quest-givers, not allies, but again existing in service of the male gaze (I'm lookin' at you, Fallout...).

I don't care if it's a parody or not (see: Bayonetta).  Why should all the games in which I get to play as a girl be sexualized, whether as parody or played straight?

I may have gone somewhat overboard in the above paragraphs, but I want to make something clear--there really is a big difference in playing a game where all the women get to be people, where they're portrayed as an equal part of society, and where there is enough difference in portrayals that we can definitively say of a sexy character: "Yeah, that's just her personality."  Because there will be more to her than just sexiness.  There will be other traits, and she will be declared something more than an object of attention through them.  It's a big, life-changing difference.

Do you think feminism is beyond critic?

Geez, Max, I dunno!  Maybe you should go take a good look at that other thread where I've talked about its problems with racism at length.  You already know the answer to that question, so stop asking.

The way I see it...if you want to play a game where women are weak passive trophies, you can. If you want to play a game where women are strong and capable, you can.

Yeah, but in that game I also want to not be the only capable female character in the universe.  Games get more and more rare as you ask for more and more female representation.  Very, very hard to find games with only women that aren't basically pornos (or made for 12-year-olds).  I think playing one of those would feel weird to me, but the opposite feels like it's pretty normal.

No one is asking to get ALL games one thing or another.  We're asking for developers to take a chance on the female market that's clearly out there, and make games for us.  That are really for us, based on what we say we want, not based on assumed stereotypes of how chicks feel about shit.

[Max White]

Geez, Max, I dunno!  Maybe you should go take a good look at that other thread where I've talked about its problems with racism at length.  You already know the answer to that question, so stop asking.

Well then maybe the problem is that you assume making fun of Anita Sarkeesian = making fun of feminism.

[Vector]

My problem is that you keep on distending her arguments in order to mock her, which seems sort of unnecessary.

[Descan]

To quote Vector and add the all-important emphasis: "ALWAYS being the prize rather than someone you get to play as is a really shitty position to be in."

It's the fact that it's so prevalent that's the problem. Which is why she was rattling off as many games as she could without going into detail on every single one of them. She wasn't trying to say "This game is bad because this and this and this and this", but instead "The game industry is bad* because of the sexism, as seen in this game and this game and this game."

It's the breadth, not the depth.

*Not the best word but come on, don't get semantic.

[Max White]

My problem is that you keep on distending her arguments in order to mock her, which seems sort of unnecessary.

I spent several pages seeing how long I could get Xantalos to keep posting, and it was totally unnecessary, and nobody said a thing.

The main body of my argument is free of reductio ad absurdum, so if you want something serious you can address that, otherwise when somebody gets paid a large sum of money to produce a video series that I don't believe properly addresses a serious issue, I am going to make fun of them, necessary or not.

[LordBucket]

Yeah, but in that game I also want to not be the only capable female character in the universe.  Games get more and more rare as you ask for more and more female representation.  Very, very hard to find games with only women that aren't basically pornos (or made for 12-year-olds).  I think playing one of those would feel weird to me, but the opposite feels like it's pretty normal.

No one is asking to get ALL games one thing or another.  We're asking for developers to take a chance on the female market that's clearly out there, and make games for us.  That are really for us, based on what we say we want, not based on assumed stereotypes of how chicks feel about shit.

I'm sorry...but, do play games? Because I do. I am a gamer. I play lots of games. I just don't see how you can have a difficult time finding games like you describe. I don't feel like there's any particular shortage of them.

Why are you having this problem when I don't? Is it just that you're playing different games than I am? If so, why are you playing games that bother you?

I also want to not be the only capable female character in the universe.

So play games that give you that. There's no shortage of them. I'm not a feminist, I don't think I'm going out of my way to specifically find games with "lots" of capable women in them, yet nevertheless, looking at the games on my computer right now, it's almost 50% have exactly what you're claiming is in short supply.

Why do you perceive scarcity?

Vector: we did the "list our games" routine once before, but I don't remember seeing your list. I'd like to ask you to honestly take a look at the games on your computer right now, and list them here in this thread. If you do that, one of couple things is likely to happen:

1) It will turn out that you happen to have a selection of games with strong bias towards weak women. In which case I would be happy to take 5 or 10 minutes to generate a list of games you can play instead that don't have that bias.

2) It will turn out that you have a lot more games with sexual equality and strong women than you realize. In which case, maybe...just maybe you'll stop focusing on the things you don't like, and start focusing on the abundance of material available that has what you say you want.

3) You'll move the goalpost. In which case some people will realize that's what you're doing, and your position will be discredited.


I'm hoping for #2.

[Pnx]

1) It will turn out that you happen to have a selection of games with strong bias towards weak women. In which case I would be happy to take 5 or 10 minutes to generate a list of games you can play instead that don't have that bias.

Not to cast doubt on you for this, but I would actually like to see this list. Because I personally seriously haven't seen it very much, at least not in major titles released this decade.

[Max White]

Well we could attempt to find games where gender is treated equally (And subtly notice how the vast majority of these games are "Select gender" type games) but I'm not sure what it will achieve. Just like how Tropes vs Women providing a list of examples of something doesn't really help, a counter list is equally useless. There is sexism in the production process of games, with a strong bias towards a male audience and a fear of female protagonists. That is the serious underlining issue here, not how many games you can name with specific qualifiers.

Even if the majority of games handled gender in a positive way, if there was still sexism within the industry producing a minority of games in the way many are made right now, we would have a problem, so list count is pretty irrelevant.


Although if we are making a list, can we start with the Portal series? Fucking love those games. Also, despite what Anita thinks, Ico. Yorda had one of the most interesting character arcs ever. Anita just doesn't like it because she isn't happy with co dependents between two people, she is only happy with female independents.

[Vector]

Do I play games?  ... Seriously?  I, too, would like to see your list.  I might agree with you, I might disagree with you, but I want to see that list.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Games currently installed on main computer:

Deus Ex
Millenium 2 - Aldorlea
Edna & Harvey: Harvey's New Eyes
Mass Effect 1 and 2
Half-Life
The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings
Eschalon: Book 2
The Binding of Isaac

Games installed on other computer:

Adventures of Shuggy
Geneforge 1
Resonance
Uplink
Pathologic
Gemini Rue

Games installed until recently:

Amnesia: The Dark Descent
Closure
Limbo
Super Meat Boy
Analogue: A Hate Story
Sekien no Inganock


I particularly like and look for sweet RPGs, bullet hell games, and stealth games (really hard to find a good female-lead stealth game); I keep on buying puzzle games in hopes of getting one with really good puzzles, but that doesn't happen so often.  So for a better indication of what I actually like and have played a lot of, not including the above lists:

Final Fantasy VI, VII, VIII, IX
Metal Gear Solid series
Touhou games (A+, would beamspam again)
Bastion
Braid
Cave Story
Eversion
Lone Survivor
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Katawa Shoujo
Tales of Symphonia
Harvest Moon 64
Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross
Recettear
KOTOR
Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Soul Calibur 2
DDR
Hatoful Boyfriend
Heroes of Might and Magic III: Armageddon's Blade
Baldur's Gate 1 and 2
Portal
Katamari Damacy
Mario Tennis
Super Smash Brothers
Paper Mario
Super Mario World
Gradius
Digimon World 1
Monster Rancher 2
Pokemon Red (haven't had access to more recent entries)
Pokemon Pinball
Bomberman 1 and 2

But that is just what I like, and more than that, what I remember liking.  I have played much, much more than that.


So yes, I play games.  And provided that I have a job, I will be buying a copy of Remember Me when it comes out, at full price.  I never buy anything at full price.  But Remember Me, I will be buying full-price.

Well we could attempt to find games where gender is treated equally (And subtly notice how the vast majority of these games are "Select gender" type games) but I'm not sure what it will achieve. Just like how Tropes vs Women providing a list of examples of something doesn't really help, a counter list is equally useless. There is sexism in the production process of games, with a strong bias towards a male audience and a fear of female protagonists. That is the serious underlining issue here, not how many games you can name with specific qualifiers.

Yeah.  Can we talk about Remember Me?  I'm excited about Remember Me, as I have been for the past... while.

[LordBucket]

Not to cast doubt on you for this, but I would actually like to see this list. Because I personally seriously haven't seen it very much, at least not in major titles released this decade.

Do I play games?  ... Seriously?  I, too, would like to see your list.  I might agree with you, I might disagree with you, but I want to see that list.

Here's what's installed on my computer right now. I didn't "cheat" by uninstalling anything before making the list.

Age of Wushu - Sexual dimorphism does exist, but it is equivalent. There is one "men only" school and one "women only" school, and several gender-neutral schools. Many strong women exist, and if you want to be and be surrounded by strong, capable female fighters...you can.

Eve Online - No sexual dimorphism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. It is possible to create a custom character avatar that is "sexualized" but is is equally possible with both genders.

Dwarf Fortress - The only sexual dimorphism is that only women can give birth, and it's the mother who carries the child after birth. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. No sexualization exists.

Neverwinter Nights - No sexual dimorphorism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. Some unequal sexualization does exist. For example, only women work in the brothels. But notably, the npc in charge and ordering around the men for most of the game is female.

Diablo 1 - Sexual dimorphism does exist. 2/3 of the available classes are male-only, with the third being female-only. Notable, the "best" class is male-only. Some unequal sexualization does exist in the game. For example, succubi have exposed breasts.

Clannad - This is a visual novel. The player is limited to only playing a male character. There is a secondary male character who is portrayed as The Butt Monkey. The female characters are well developed with unique personalities and interests. Weak, passive female characters do exist, but they are outnumbered by strong, competent and capable women. Some sexualization does exist, but the visuals are generally PG rated, and women are generally placed on a pedestal more than objectified. For example, kissing is portrayed as a "Big Deal."

Patapony - The majority of characters in the game are either female or animals of unspecified gender. The narrator is female. The "player character" is a troop of exclusively females. One villain is female. One villain is a swarm of genderless animals. Only one male exists, and he is a villain. No sexualization exists.

Elona - No sexual dimorphism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. Notably, both men and women can have sex with members of either gender, and both genders are capable of becoming "pregnant." Some unequal sexulization exists. For example, there is one npc in particular who is disparaged as "getting around" and her panties appear in game as a weapon.

Morrowind - No sexual dimorphism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Some sexual dimorphism exists in the sense that most races have slightly different starting stats by gender, though stat totals are the same, and both genders may advance without limitation.  Many strong women exist, including two goddesses, one of whom is the narrator, and the other of whom is portrayed as clearly more powerful than the primary male god.

Might and Magic IV and V - No sexual dimorphism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. Some unequal sexualization exists: There are more scantily clad female npcs than male npcs.

[Cheeetar]

Yeah, but in that game I also want to not be the only capable female character in the universe.  Games get more and more rare as you ask for more and more female representation.  Very, very hard to find games with only women that aren't basically pornos (or made for 12-year-olds).  I think playing one of those would feel weird to me, but the opposite feels like it's pretty normal.

No one is asking to get ALL games one thing or another.  We're asking for developers to take a chance on the female market that's clearly out there, and make games for us.  That are really for us, based on what we say we want, not based on assumed stereotypes of how chicks feel about shit.

I'm sorry...but, do play games? Because I do. I am a gamer. I play lots of games. I just don't see how you can have a difficult time finding games like you describe. I don't feel like there's any particular shortage of them.

Stating that things are a certain way because you personally think they are is not a very convincing argument. I play games, and looking through my steam library I see 38 games, of which you play solely as a female in 2 and exclusively as a male in 17. Of the 10 in which you can play as both female and male, only 3 of them treat females as equivalent to males, and don't focus on the male character as the 'right' way to play. Games which have a male protagonist are fine. The fact that the vast majority of the games I play have a male protagonist is both boring and sexist.
This, of course, ignores that the vast majority of women in the games I play who aren't protagonists are also made to be useless and without agency.

[Vector]

I didn't uninstall any games for my list, either.  I even left Millenium, which I don't even play or like.

See, you said that there was some list of games with female main characters that you thought I'd like.

Diablo is notorious for having female characters fall down in a way that indicates that they've been raped.  No thanks.

Of the above list, the things I think I'd be most likely to enjoy would be Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights, Clannad, and Might and Magic.  Two of those are sequels/"followers" to games on my list (sequels I didn't enjoy, I might add; and I played as a dude in Baldur's Gate because guys get, like, four romances and girls get one).  One of those has a male-only MC (I do like dating games, actually).  The other one... well, I'm planning on getting Skyrim eventually, but that still isn't the kind of RPG I really like.

I want squad RPGs where the gals aren't mostly thieves and spellcasters, single-MC action games where she's female and non-sexualized, and stealth games.  With characterization.  I like being told a story, you see.  These are all very hard to come by.