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[DJ]

I think we're past discussing raw statistics, and into discussing reasons they are the way they are. You can't just pick whichever explanation suits you and claim it's the only possible one without further proof.

Anyway, Vector, I picked Tesla and Euler specifically because the bullshit they endured wasn't due to their radical new ideas. Tesla had no business acumen, so Edison exploited the shit out of him. Euler had an understanding of philosophy that was below the level of the other thinkers on Frederick's court, so Voltaire made him the butt of his jokes. The recurring theme is that people with sub-par social skills get the thick end. I can't really say I know you since I've never met you IRL, but from the very limited picture of you I got on this forum I'm guessing you're not very good at making small talk.

As for guys not getting lectured on topics they know well by people with limited understanding of the topic, not being asked if they took the course previously if they show some competence etc., you're just plain wrong because I've experienced these things myself on numerous occasions.

[Ogdibus]

.

[scriver]

He's saying that holding up a handful of extraordinary people who fought their way against the stream doesn't prove that there wasn't any disadvantage to being female.

[scriver]

He's saying that holding up a handful of extraordinary people who fought their way against the stream doesn't prove that there wasn't any disadvantage to being female.

[Willfor]

And even the extraordinary ones sometimes disappeared in annals of history.

[Vector]

I think we're past discussing raw statistics, and into discussing reasons they are the way they are. You can't just pick whichever explanation suits you and claim it's the only possible one without further proof.

Anyway, Vector, I picked Tesla and Euler specifically because the bullshit they endured wasn't due to their radical new ideas. Tesla had no business acumen, so Edison exploited the shit out of him. Euler had an understanding of philosophy that was below the level of the other thinkers on Frederick's court, so Voltaire made him the butt of his jokes. The recurring theme is that people with sub-par social skills get the thick end. I can't really say I know you since I've never met you IRL, but from the very limited picture of you I got on this forum I'm guessing you're not very good at making small talk.

As for guys not getting lectured on topics they know well by people with limited understanding of the topic, not being asked if they took the course previously if they show some competence etc., you're just plain wrong because I've experienced these things myself on numerous occasions.

First of all, you're assuming that the other math majors aren't just as socially awkward, lol.

Second of all--are you sure that's not ethnicity-related?

Dunno, I'm talking about things like "I know the proof of the Pythagorean theorem (taught freshman year of high school) and can reproduce it for a college course; they ask me if I have taken the college course before."

[i2amroy]

Dunno, I'm talking about things like "I know the proof of the Pythagorean theorem (taught freshman year of high school) and can reproduce it for a college course; they ask me if I have taken the college course before."

I'm not so sure if this has anything to do with gender, it might just be that most high schools that they are used to handling don't teach that. I know for a fact that none of the high schools in my area teach the proof for the pythagorean theorem (all of them teach the theorem itself, but none of them bother to teach the proof for it any more then a quick "here's the proof on pg. X now lets move on to useful things").

Not to revert your general statement of things like this happening, but in this particular case I'm not sure if it fits your reasoning.

[penguinofhonor]

I think a more obviously gender related issue in academics is title issues. Female doctors get called "Mrs" constantly. I know a couple who have to stress this issue at the beginning of every year. I've never seen a male professor have that issue.

I read a piece a while back by a female scientist talking about how much more trouble she had getting respect from her students. I'll see if I can find it.

[Vector]

I realize that, but my general experience has been that people are surprised to find me competent, and it does not seem that most of the young men are treated with similar surprise.  There's one I can think of, but that's because he's a freshman who makes everyone in the graduate courses he takes look stupid.

I don't want to argue overmuch on this point.  Needless to say, it's really unpleasant to be in courses that are 17% women.  I can't do a good job of conveying my lived experience through words, but I'm fairly certain of it, and I certainly don't ascribe every irritation I face to discrimination.  There's just a certain attitude or behavior sometimes where one goes "ahh, this feels like sexism."

Well, okay, and I don't think guys with math degrees are usually asked if they're going to go into secretarial work.

[Frumple]

I think a more obviously gender related issue in academics is title issues. Female doctors get called "Mrs" constantly. I know a couple who have to stress this issue at the beginning of every year. I've never seen a male professor have that issue.

Apropos to nothing, but I've yet to meet someone with a PHD that actually stated they preferred to be referred to with the doctor honorific. Bar none, they've all preferred either no title at all or their first name. This has been true for both males and females with the credentials for it, so far. Obviously limited sample size, but... still. There's been a couple dozen or so.

[penguinofhonor]

Is this outside of an academic setting?

[Frumple]

And in, actually, including in the classroom.

Even medical doctors I've dealt with usually either make the gesture of discarding the formality or are unperturbed when it's not invoked to begin with.

[i2amroy]

I think a more obviously gender related issue in academics is title issues. Female doctors get called "Mrs" constantly. I know a couple who have to stress this issue at the beginning of every year. I've never seen a male professor have that issue.

Apropos to nothing, but I've yet to meet someone with a PHD that actually stated they preferred to be referred to with the doctor honorific. Bar none, they've all preferred either no title at all or their first name. This has been true for both males and females with the credentials for it, so far. Obviously limited sample size, but... still. There's been a couple dozen or so.

All the professors that I know prefer first name or no title as well, though quite a few have said that in the event you decide to use a title they want you to use the right one. To quote one of my professors "I didn't spend all that time and money getting my PHD just for you to call me Mr.! If you must use a title make sure to use the right one."

[GlyphGryph]

Also, it's about control. There's a difference between telling people they don't need to use your title, and people not using your title or using the wrong one because they assume you haven't earned the title. And I'd say that difference is pretty large.

[LordBucket]

I realize that, but my general experience has been that people are surprised to find me competent,
and it does not seem that most of the young men are treated with similar surprise.

I think you mean people are surprised to see women engage in activities that they expect from men rather than women. The reverse is also true. I assure you that if you're a guy and you give someone a very nice knitted sweater they will ask you if your wife made it and will be shocked if you tell them that you did.

Ditto if you're a male nurse, a male receptionist, etc. Or try taking your 8 year old niece to the park and watch as people look at you strangely and wonder if they should call the police. Yes, this might be "sexism" but it's neither productive nor probably much fun for you to take offense that people don't expect you to do things that they tend to associate with a different gender.

This is not "people think women are incompetent" and in fact, it's not even specific to gender at all. This is "people are surprised when they see someone engaging in an activity who does not match their expectations for the sort of person who engages in that activity."  People would be just as surprised to see an Irishman who can't hold his liquor, a 6 foot tall Japanese playing basketball, etc.