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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 309465 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1050 on: April 11, 2013, 06:08:04 pm »

1. Holy fuck, the forums have a /me command. This isn't just MSH typing that out with red font color.
I thought everyone knew this.
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2. Don't you mean "Resident Film Critic"?
NO.
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PanH

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1051 on: April 11, 2013, 06:11:24 pm »

1. Holy fuck, the forums have a /me command. This isn't just MSH typing that out with red font color.
Well, learnt something today.
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Glowcat

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1052 on: April 11, 2013, 06:19:05 pm »

I never heard of a lowly conscript making it very far up in the military, from all the history I've studied. And I don't know how much respect is being shown when you put people in the front to die for you. I'd call that a very shallow respect. And which women were taken into servitude here? I don't get where that one came from, because women haven't been slaves in Western Europe for about a thousand years, and neither has men.

...

Civilians weren't just women, it wasn't the women who was wiped out and forgotten, it was the whole of the losing part. And the fact that culture glorifies soldiers is just that bit more horrific, it means every man who isn't up for getting gutted and having his limbs blown off isn't a real man.

I used general terms because "conscription" covers a lot. It includes both mandatory enlistment and something like being impressed onto a ship. As long as it isn't slavery the men were paid for their efforts and conscripted soldiers were still valued by men for, as you put it, "being a real man." Not everybody might want that status but men who fought in battle were definitely given respect compared to those who hadn't. The entire enterprise of war became a male enterprise, waged for the benefit of men in power by men and reinforced by socially imposed male values. As I said, it was definitely a negative, but not every instance of conscription being shoved into the enemy's bayonet at gunpoint. Neither did being forcibly conscripted mean you'd die (or even be maimed) and required service would eventually end.

I also said women were forced into servitude, not slavery, and as for who... the vast majority until recent times. As the elite disenfranchise lower classes by making them wage slaves, women were disenfranchised by having most options for self-sufficiency cut off and thus lost most of their agency to a man. They effectively became well cared for servants.

Neither did I claim all civilian casualties were women. Rather my point was that it was the only option available to them. Men could avoid war far easier than a woman could serve (in most societies - there were obviously some exceptions but even there the woman was considered caregiver first). See above for the whole actually being valued by society thing, which yes is terrible given our own ideals but we're talking about the value/power given to people by societies, not our own perspective on their values.

So to try and remember where this was going... No, men in the lower classes did not have it worse than women, even if they did have unique problems to them. Men today have unique problems to their situation. However their accepted roles have always had greater power in wider society and had more social flexibility if only due to the advantages that income brought. Things sucked for everybody when you were more likely to die from disease than old age and an option for another type of death hardly overshadows everything women suffered. I haven't even brought up how men were more valued for things they accomplished outside of war either.

I dunno, maybe this could be brought back to the topic somehow? I mean we are talking about main protagonist roles which typically feature overcoming enemies (i.e. combat) being typically given to male characters (if there's a set protagonist at all) which means that people actually want to play these roles more often than not.

And now I'm rambling.

* Glowcat is rambling while admiring the emote command
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Glowcat

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Lysabild

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1055 on: April 11, 2013, 07:05:09 pm »

Hilariously, the villain is still a man.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1056 on: April 11, 2013, 07:11:53 pm »

It's not really hilarious, it's just the reality of how the game's mythology is set up. You could potentially have a villain besides Ganondorf in a main series Legend of Zelda game, but it would be strange.

I am now just realizing that there's also no actual reason given for Link to get the Master Sword in every game. It has the whole Triforce carved on it. Technically speaking, Link, Zelda, and Ganon should all be able to wield it.
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Ogdibus

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1057 on: April 11, 2013, 07:16:27 pm »

Have Zelda save Ganon from Link.  x3
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1058 on: April 11, 2013, 07:17:16 pm »

What about Vaati and Ghirahim? It's more that there's no female character to switch Ganon with that's as iconic, or I bet he'd have done that.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1059 on: April 11, 2013, 07:19:44 pm »

What about Vaati and Ghirahim? It's more that there's no female character to switch Ganon with that's as iconic, or I bet he'd have done that.
By "main series" I am referring to any of the games that focus on reincarnations of Link, Zelda, and Ganon engaging in a struggle for the Triforce. That's not to say that non-main series games are not good or less important (Majora's Mask is my favorite, but it is a side-story), but they don't focus on the central recurring conflict.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1060 on: April 11, 2013, 07:29:20 pm »

So there are no non-Ganon villains in main series games, because main series games are defined as having Ganon?
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1061 on: April 11, 2013, 07:32:15 pm »

Aaron Diaz imagines a Zelda game where Zelda is actually the protagonist.

How does that man have such a beautiful mind?

Yep of course... The ONLY way to have Zelda be the protagonist is to entirely alter her character, motivations, and that of everyone around them.

So there are no non-Ganon villains in main series games, because main series games are defined as having Ganon?

There are, but honestly Ganon is overwhelmingly the villain. Even in games where he isn't the villain he somehow becomes the villain.

Look man, Zelda doesn't need to become Link to become the hero. Remember Link has the Triforce of Courage and Zelda the Triforce of Wisdom.

While the Link as the Prince works, Him deciding to doom his kingdom so he can become the hero is something I could imagine Link doing. It isn't even a reverse of the roles because while Link is a Prince now, he isn't doing what Zelda does (In that when Zelda dons disguises it is because she always knows exactly what she needs to do, she is a sacrificial character. This Link however is just being irresponsible in order to be a Knight in Shining armor, he is a wannabe hero who has the potential).

Zelda here seems like she is going to be "Link if he had more magical powers" which is kind of a shame.

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focus on reincarnations of Link, Zelda, and Ganon


No actually it has been the same Ganon.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 07:34:56 pm by Neonivek »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1062 on: April 11, 2013, 07:32:20 pm »

The main series is defined as having the Triforce conflict. This effectively requires the Triforce bearers to be present. This is not to say that main series games cannot have other antagonists as well (Zant is probably the best example of this), but they have to have Ganon because he holds the Triforce of Power. And having Ganon without him taking the reigns of being the main antagonist at some point would be very out-of-character.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1063 on: April 11, 2013, 07:33:51 pm »

Honestly I would like to see a game where someone else steps forward as one of the destined holders of the Triforce of power and not be a villain.

Oddly enough the only triforce that I cannot imagine a true holder being evil, is the Triforce of Wisdom.
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Glowcat

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #1064 on: April 11, 2013, 07:34:20 pm »

Not just Ganon but the whole triforce reincarnation conflict that MSH mentioned defines the main Zelda series. It's like the eternally replaying battles of Valhalla, but with killer chickens.
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