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[penguinofhonor]

list the downsides of being female.

See, my list would have the exact same problem as LordBucket's. That's why I'm not going to try to prove anything by showing how good I am at listing things.

Though a rather relevant one is that women get thought of negatively more than men when they ask for pay raises. This is one of the reasons behind the wage gap.

[palsch]

That quote is rather disturbing. However, with date rape, especially if the woman was severely drunk, the testimonial of the woman has to be treated with a pinch of salt, surely, as she for various reasons might not remember what happened. how does she know she didnt consent?

In that case yes, her testimony should be treated with a pinch of salt. But in that state it would be technically impossible for her to consent. Consent requires the "freedom and capacity to make that choice", which means someone too drunk or under any coercive pressures can't grant consent. Here there is an onus on the partner to recognise that the person is unable to give consent (where the 'reasonable belief' part comes in).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seriously, that is their definition? According to this, if a woman were to force herself upon a man and engage in vaginal sex, it wouldn't be rape because the man wasn't penetrated. That is kind of wrong.

Yes, I know that men have a lower rate of being raped than women. Doesn't matter, the law should still cover this.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't disagree, but it's worth remembering that such things are covered by sexual assault, so it's not like it's not a crime. Similarly rape laws tend to change painfully slowly. The UK got rid of marital rape exceptions in 1991.

Do you really have it so terrible?

Well, seeing as I'm a 26 year old white, currently unemployed guy living in England, no I don't. But I do see women being shit upon constantly, usually by people advancing the sorts of arguments you just made as justification.

And I find it kinda telling that whenever I make a counter to a particular argument (in this case, why the pay gap exists) I get a completely unrelated argument in return.

I have applied for many (i was 18, just finished sixth form collage and an IT apprenticeship and needed a job. I applied for several dozen jobs and trawled all the largest job sites. that was 2 years ago.) and, whilst i cannot speak for the US, on all the job sites here in Britain they say a fixed salary, regardless of gender. The only reason, in Britain, a man will be paid more is if he has actively chased a pay rise or got promoted.

I have a job site open right now. Here is a search for all jobs in Cambridge, UK today. I make 12 on the first page with salary ranges or unspecified salaries. On the second page it's all but one.

[Max White]

I give up.
I keep trying to promote the idea that human rights doesn't come down to who has the saddest story, and still we get things like 'Guys have it so bad! How hard could it be to be a woman!'
You know what? It doesn't even matter. If there was a great annual parade where all men were forced to walk through the streets naked with signs around their neck saying 'I'm worthless' then that would clearly be an issue worthy of the rage of a million white hot suns, but it wouldn't make womens rights any less of an issue.
This isn't a dick measuring contest, this is peoples lives.

[kahn1234]

list the downsides of being female.

See, my list would have the exact same problem as LordBucket's. That's why I'm not going to try to prove anything by showing how good I am at listing things.

Though a rather relevant one is that women get thought of negatively more than men when they ask for pay raises. This is one of the reasons behind the wage gap.

the Key sentence here is this:

To be clear, both men and women thought this way.

Which means it has nothing to do with sexism and more to do with the way women go about asking for pay rises. Its simple really. Women will try to copy the men who have gotten successful pay rises, however if they accidentally become too impolite or too pushy, it can backfire. it would be the same for men if the roles were reversed.


although, nice try at spinning an article to suit your own purposes.

That quote is rather disturbing. However, with date rape, especially if the woman was severely drunk, the testimonial of the woman has to be treated with a pinch of salt, surely, as she for various reasons might not remember what happened. how does she know she didnt consent?

In that case yes, her testimony should be treated with a pinch of salt. But in that state it would be technically impossible for her to consent. Consent requires the "freedom and capacity to make that choice", which means someone too drunk or under any coercive pressures can't grant consent. Here there is an onus on the partner to recognise that the person is unable to give consent (where the 'reasonable belief' part comes in).

What if the person who supposedly raped her was equally inebriated and wasn't in any state to make judgements either?

I have a job site open right now. Here is a search for all jobs in Cambridge, UK today. I make 12 on the first page with salary ranges or unspecified salaries. On the second page it's all but one.

I saw 8 out of about 3 dozen there having salary ranges. Also, salaries on the ones i saw were based of off qualifications, past experience etc. and, as the website linked by someone else proves:

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/14/133599768/ask-for-a-raise-most-women-hesitate

women hesitate and/or make mistakes when asking for wage rises, which is the main cause of the pay gap, not starting salary.

[penguinofhonor]

Women being treated more poorly than men for the same actions? There's no way that could be sexism.

I'm out too, bros. See you in the next thread.

[kahn1234]

Women being treated more poorly than men for the same actions? There's no way that could be sexism.

I'm out too, bros. See you in the next thread.

If you go about something the wrong way (aka asking for a wage rise), expect to not have things go your way.

and, as your own website link stated, the women still got their wage rise, but people thought less of them as they came across as too aggressive. Coming across as too aggressive has nothing to do with sexism.

[Cheeetar]

At first I attempted to read through all the posts in this thread, but seeing rational arguments so thoroughly browbeaten has saddened me.

[PanH]

[quote author=kahn1234 link=topic=124353.msg4168917#msg4168917 date=1365687456
What if the person who supposedly raped her was equally inebriated and wasn't in any state to make judgements either?

There is a case for that. Also, I know that in some countries, you cannot give your consent if you're intoxicated (I'm not lawyer, but afaik, it works more as a, "you're still protected by law even when you're drunk" rather than "every sex act while drunk is a rape").

[Kansa]

Sexism against females and against males is bad, it is possible for them both to exist. Instead of arguing who has it worse maybe we could just agree that things on both sides need to change

[Max White]

At first I attempted to read through all the posts in this thread, but seeing rational arguments so thoroughly browbeaten has saddened me.

I don't think you missed anything of great value, with the notable exception of my career as a script writer burning to ash before my eyes...

[LordBucket]

list the downsides of being female.

I can think of lots of things. Here are a few of the top of my head:

 * Growing up constantly feeling overprotected. Wanting to go out with friends but being told to check in, not stay out late, call in, carry a cellphone at all times...while you watch your brother go out and and all the things you want to do, but can't.
 * Dealing with the mixed message of being expected to be sexy, while simultaneously being expected to avoid sex.
 * Feeling bad if you're fat or have small boobs.
 * Not always being in control of your own life, and being expected to not always be in control of your own life.
 * Having a very limited window during which you're capable of having children.
 * Bleeding for several days every month.
 * Never having any "real" friends, because other women are treacherous and out to get you, and guys all want to sleep with you.

Ladies...I acknowledge that you have to deal with some things that may be unpleasant simply by virtue of being a woman in human society. But ultimately, a woman who is willing to...

1) Spend 3-4 hours working out every week
2) Wear a padded bra
3) Not get pregnant until married
4) Consent to sex

...can be extremely successful in life. Do those four things, and you can get away with pretty much anything else you want.

women get thought of negatively more than men when they ask for pay raises.

Ladies...if you're asking for pay raises...you're doing it wrong. You don't need to make money to be successful in life. All you need to do is make a man happy. Why spend 40 hours a week working for less money when you can have a man do all the working for you?

Yes, I realize I'm playing both sides of this argument rather than making a unified point. My goal here is to promote insight, not assert a particular worldview. I simply suggest that if you think you have it bad, try to see things from the other side. I would propose that to both sides of this discussion.

Most of the things that one gender is unhappy about are things that would never occur to the other gender to care about.

[penguinofhonor]

At first I attempted to read through all the posts in this thread, but seeing rational arguments so thoroughly browbeaten has saddened me.

I don't think you missed anything of great value, with the notable exception of my career as a script writer burning to ash before my eyes...

Just find whoever published Scarecrows and ask if they want to make a sequel. It'd be a great starting point.

[kahn1234]

* Growing up constantly feeling overprotected. Wanting to go out with friends but being told to check in, not stay out late, call in, carry a cellphone at all times...while you watch your brother go out and and all the things you want to do, but can't.

Parents fault, not mens.

 * Dealing with the mixed message of being expected to be sexy, while simultaneously being expected to avoid sex.

Blame womens mags and celeb culture.

 * Feeling bad if you're fat or have small boobs.

Blame womens mags and celeb culture.

 * Not always being in control of your own life, and being expected to not always be in control of your own life.

No one is always in control of their life.

 * Having a very limited window during which you're capable of having children.

natures fault.

 * Bleeding for several days every month.

again, nature

 * Never having any "real" friends, because other women are treacherous and out to get you, and guys all want to sleep with you.

try and look/hang out with 'real' people, not the shallow popular ones?

[Ogdibus]

.

[LordBucket]

Parents fault, not mens.

Doesn't matter whose fault it is. This isn't a competition with men on one side and women on the other where one side has to win and the other has to lose. It is possible for both sides to win here.