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[mainiac]

The point here is that he didn't complain about the budgets or production quality, but the concept behind the games. There's an unstated assumption that boy's games are about "real" things and what women and girls like isn't real games. Not just for low-budget ones, but stuff like The Sims gets the same treatment: girls like it so it isn't a "real" game.

The concept is right.  Sims is game for girls and is not real game.  CoD is game for boys and is also not real game.  Real games are those like Dwarf fortress and are for mighty women who do not need games for little girls.

[Solifuge]

First up you cherry picked only terrible games which are marketed to girls, and ignored, e.g. "The Sims" which is a very popular game with women.

You also listed non-existent titles as your examples: "Puppy Paradise Island". I pointed out that Nintendogs is one of the best selling games for girls. Basically you're sneering at the entire concept of the games girls actually like to play. People make more pet-related games not because they want to force women into some mold, but because someone else made a pet game and it sold 50 million copies. I can't see how a "cute pet" game is sexist AT ALL, just because girls enjoy them.

Reelya, you seem to be missing my point, and then conflating it with a bunch of things lurking in your head. We're not talking about how evil Big Business is. We're not talking about how girls enjoying games is... bad? Also, how the crap is the Sims even relevant here? Because a girl played it? Awesome, so have I. And I enjoyed it.

It isn't a "Girl Game", though. It got a pretty male-centered marketing campaign too, at least until EA caught on. Despite that, it's actually a great example of a genderless game; it's funny and fun to play, and pulls this all off without any real bias toward women or men. In fact, I'd like more games to be like that; geared towards people, rather than boys or girls. Atari marketed a lot of their games that way for a while... they were actually pretty progressive with their ad campaigns here and there:

Spoiler: Exhibit #: Mom and daughter play millipede, while Dad carries in the groceries. (click to show/hide)

Go back a page and read his post:

And in return, when the industry decides to make female-oriented games, what they get is a slew of titles like Puppy Paradise Island, Best Friendz 4Ever: Shop-A-Thon, and Housewife 4: The Cooking Adventure.

The point here is that he didn't complain about the budgets or production quality, but the concept behind the games. There's an unstated assumption that boy's games are about "real" things and what women and girls like isn't real games. Not just for low-budget ones, but stuff like The Sims gets the same treatment: girls like it so it isn't a "real" game.

If you read the rest of my post, instead of that one line you love so much, I was talking about how almost all games are marketed exclusively at a male audience, which lead most games that were developed afterward to be geared toward a male perspective. Of course, it's not always the case; there were a number of games in the early days that let you choose the gender of the Hero, like Dragon Warrior IV. It's great, because it lets girls as well as boys project themselves onto the protagonist. It helps show that girls can be portrayed in a heroic and positive light as well, rather than being limited to the role of the hero's prize or whatever.

On the other hand, the games that WERE marketed exclusively to girls are typically really, really terrible games. And if you disagree with me, I welcome you to play this game, and tell me how the experience went for you: http://www.virtualnes.com/play/?id=NES-8V

[Rolan7]

I had to look up Phantasy Star to be sure.  Apparently only the first game had a female heroine, followed by four sequels with male main characters (Online lets you play as a girl, though).

Are you saying you're not happy with that, and you want the majority of games to have female leads? Are you saying you want an exact 50% gender ratio? What's your goal here? What's the problem?

Primarily I was just disputing the assertion that female main characters aren't rare.  They are rare, and as evidence I pointed out that about half the provided examples were not good examples of female main characters being common.

Of course I'm not saying there needs to be a 50-50 split, even ideally.  I'm just saying that they're currently rare, and often targeted at men anyway. 

I do eventually imply that I'm unhappy with the situation.  I would like more strong female characters for strong women to play as and be inspired or entertained by.  Too many strong female characters are bizarrely large breasted and underclothed, and we know exactly why.  It's immersion breaking.  *I* don't want to play as some teenager's wank-fuel.  It's downright offensive to ME that the developers think I, as a guy, require every woman to look like this. 

I cannot boycott every game containing unnecessarily sexy women because that is almost every game out there.  I would like to enjoy triple A titles sometimes, and Valve releases so rarely.  I'm forced to compromise, and avoid the worst offenders - and complain on internet forums apparently.

There's still a problem now, but it was worse back then.

...what is the problem? Exactly what? The point of my post you responded to was to demonstrate that there are, and pretty much always have been games with female protagonists. That entire train of thought started when Vector implied that there weren't many games with female leads, which is clearly demonstrably incorrect.

There are lots of games with female leads. Yes, there are lots games with male leads too. A majority, even. But if you want to play as a girl, there's no problem at all finding a game that will accommodate you.

Does everyone agree on this?

To be fair, we're talking about whether something is "rare" or whether there are "lots".  We really just have a difference of opinion.

I do get the impression that you are overestimating the amount of female protagonists.  Even that list of supposedly female-dominated games contained more males than females.

Because if so...then again, what exactly is the problem? Are people seriously complaining about the fact that games with male leads exist?

Nope, no one is saying that.

Is the problem that people just arbitrarily don't like the ratio? Why? Why does that need to be a problem? If you want to play a girl, you can. If you want to play a boy, you can. If you want to play strong woman who's the master of her own fate, you can. If you want to play a strong man who rescues helpless girls and gets smooches for it, you can.

Everyone is being catered to.

Do you ever wish that there were more games of a certain type?  Have you ever been excited about a new game coming out?

Now imagine your game collection is 10% as large, and you have to wait ten times as long before a new game you're actually eager for is released.  It's not that the game industry is small or lazy, just that 90% of the games out there feature gigantic throbbing penises or something.  For the sake of this example I'm going to assume that would be a distraction to you, and make it hard to get invested in the game.  A lot of people don't even *want* the penises, but they keep buying because they like video games.  You can either settle for the 10% of games that pander to you, or you can give in and fund more penis productions.  (You'll probably have better luck with indie games, which is great if you don't need the production values, support, and online communities that come with triple-A titles)

And every time you speak online you lose all credibility because "guys don't play games" (because of all the penises).  Be ready for everyone to ask for pics, too, as if you could hope to compare with the ones in-game.  Get disgusted and avoid multiplayer altogether (hey, it's a vicious cycle!)

[Max White]

Is is sexist for a man to be telling a woman she should be happy with the amount and diversity of female characters in video games?
Is it still sexist if it were a woman saying it to a woman, or a man saying it to a man?

[Neonivek]

Name some really well-produced games for little boys for example?

The Super Solver series.

[Reelya]

If you read the rest of my post, instead of that one line you love so much, I was talking about how almost all games are marketed exclusively at a male audience, which lead most games that were developed afterward to be geared toward a male perspective. Of course, it's not always the case; there were a number of games in the early days that let you choose the gender of the Hero, like Dragon Warrior IV. It's great, because it lets girls as well as boys project themselves onto the protagonist. It helps show that girls can be portrayed in a heroic and positive light as well, rather than being limited to the role of the hero's prize or whatever.

On the other hand, the games that WERE marketed exclusively to girls are typically really, really terrible games. And if you disagree with me, I welcome you to play this game, and tell me how the experience went for you: http://www.virtualnes.com/play/?id=NES-8V

C'mon I've played worse platformers than that, by far. Anyway, anecdotes never prove a trend. And if it sucks, don't buy it. I could link you to truly awful boy's games too.

The women in games page on wikipedia, states that 45% of current action & rpg games give you the option to select male or female avatars. So, it's not that rare as people make out:

In a sample of 669 action, shooter, and role-playing games selected by EEDAR in 2012, only 24 (4%) had an exclusively female protagonist, and 300 (45%) provided the option of selecting one.

It does go on to mention that games with male-only protagonists tend out-sell ones where you can select gender, which outsell female-only ones. But the male-only ones get significantly more marketing budget than the other two types. This is a "chicken and egg" question though, and it would shed more light on the matter to see how games with equal marketing budgets fare against each other on the basis of gender.

[Reelya]

Name some really well-produced games for little boys for example?

The Super Solver series.

Super Solver didn't specify the gender of the protagonist:

Besides the game letting you name yourself, the Super Solver's gender is never given. And thanks to the large hat and turtleneck shirt, it's impossible to tell.

[Putnam]

Similarly, the majority of games where you can choose a gender are games in which the player is a blank slate almost entirely.

Besides, while anecdotes never prove a trend, that ignores the fact that there kind of... is an actual trend.

[Vector]

Right.  "Choose a female character" games aren't really choosing a character.  They're choosing a skin for an avatar, but the "character" there is supplied solely by you.

Is is sexist for a man to be telling a woman she should be happy with the amount and diversity of female characters in video games?
Is it still sexist if it were a woman saying it to a woman, or a man saying it to a man?

I'd say that it's infuriating when said across a power divide and pretty sexist in all those situations, assuming the state of the gaming industry is as it is now.

[Neonivek]

The thing I find is whether or not a man or woman is writing the characters does sway people into thinking whether or not the character is sexist.

If Twilight was made by a male author... ohh goodness.

[Vector]

Buddy, there are huge portions of the internet--women!--complaining about how frickin' sexist Twilight is, so don't give us that.

[Solifuge]

Also, let's not confuse "Twilight" with "Writing". They're two completely different things.

[Neonivek]

Buddy, there are huge portions of the internet--women!--complaining about how frickin' sexist Twilight is, so don't give us that.

And yet, how many people is that compared to how it would be if a man wrote that?

[penguinofhonor]

So believe in the complete death of the author?

[Max White]

That is one of the more troublesome issues with discrimination. When people speak out about it, the first thing we do is look at what side of the void they stand on, and totally miss the irony...