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[Graknorke]

As for the prevalence of female characters in games...are we seriously even bothering with that issue? Personally the vast majority of all games I play allow the player to choose the gender of our character. I'm playing Eve right now and I have a female character. What's the problem? And it's not like this anything new. Even in the 80s and 90s we had Chun Li, Samus Aran, Princess Peach, Alis Landale...there's never been any shortage of female protagonists in games.

The main question I'm interested in is whether you have a greater female potential to be punched in the face when you play those characters.

Can we please not bring that up?
The original got a thread locked.

[DeKaFu]

The main problem with what Lord Bucket said is that he's treating it like, as he said, a female audience is a hypothetical audience. When, as has been stated, it's not? 47-50% of gamers are female, so the audience is split, but the actual games are not.

If they were clamoring for those particular games, sales should reflect that. They have enough purchasing power already. One question should now be why games with female protagonists aren't selling so well, when so many women are buying games already.

The reason why I think this isn't happening is what I was getting at in my previous post (that got lost behind the toy aisle metaphor, whatever).

Basically, the characters in the majority of games are either male or 2-dimensional females designed to appeal to males. Woman gamers have been dealing with this choice for years: Play games designed to appeal to men, or don't play games. They've also been trained to assume female characters are going to be either boring or actively insulting to them, because they usually are.

So what we have is a female gaming population who's got no qualms about playing male characters, and has no motivation to seek out female characters because they're almost invariably awful. And male gamers don't have any particular motivation to play as a female character unless she's eye candy.

This is why games with female protagonists aren't flying off the shelves despite female gamers being a thing.

[DJ]

Male characters in those games are just as 2-dimensional.

[palsch]

Male characters in those games are just as 2-dimensional.

Ignore the words "2-dimensional" in that post and read it again.

[penguinofhonor]

Women tend more towards management than action games from what I've observed, and you don't really have a protagonist in Simcity or Transport Tycoon Deluxe.

So... women inherently don't like games with protagonists? Or maybe something about those protagonists is turning them away.

[Neonivek]

To be fair I will say that not all games with male protagonists are necessarily going for a male audience, in fact I'd bet most aren't (because most games are made with artistic intent THEN money intent.)

Mind you in trying to write a female protagonist myself, and one not based off of a specific woman in my life who seems to dominate the characterization of females, I found that it was really hard when I tried to think about everything you can and cannot base a woman off of. (For those wondering that personality is: Perfectionist, cold, extremely independent, and strong... Which is the personality traits of a real woman I know, I am really simplifying it though)

Because I wanted to go with characters and inner struggles and how their inner struggles are being reflected in their outward reality (For example the male protagonist of the first game... which some of you know as Evander Justice... is dealing with his inability to be a sufficient father, his shattered dreams, and all that) it created a situation where I felt that there really was no way to make my female protagonist viable.

There was literally no inner struggle I felt was completely outside the sexism zone. In fact without realizing it the characterization I gave her: Quiet (She is selectively mute from childhood trauma), status quo loving, less curious, intuitive, physical... that it could be a sexist character. Even though I didn't create her to be, she was supposed to, in the second game, be the opposing personality of the original protagonist to create a large difference of personality. The difference between the Male protagonist in the first game and the female protagonist in the second in terms of their struggle was simple: One wishes to be in a future where things are better and the other wishes to return to a past where they were happy.

Which is the thing... Female characters are harder to write then you think, they as easy as it could be. It certainly requires more mental fortitude not to second guess yourself which is probably why these discussions just end up not helping. Since to write a good character they need to be a character you connect with.

Which is why I try hard to establish the "Fair use" aspect a lot of the time in this topic. Since sometimes it feels like just using a woman means your sexist... Like you would be a LOT better off just using male characters because even if you presented the most sexist depiction of a male, absolutely no one would call you out on it.

[Ogdibus]

.

[Rolan7]

The fact that you can list four female characters in the 80s and 90s is by no means equivalent to the notion that "there's no shortage."

Do we really need to go there? You can use google as well as I can.


 * Alis Landale from Phantasy Star
 * Princess Peach from Super Mario Brothers 2
 * Xanthia from Legend of Kyrandia 2
 * Juliet from Chainsaw Lollipop
 * There's the entire Tomb Raider Series where you play Lara Croft
 * There's the Metroid series where you play Samus Aran
 * The Street Fighter Series has Chun Li and Sammy
 * The Mortal Kombat series has: Sonya Blade, Kitana, Mileena, Jade, Sindel, Sheeva, Tanya, Li Mei and Skarlet
 * The Samurai Shodown has Nakoruru, Charlotte and Cham Cham
 * The Tekken series has Kunimitsu, Michelle, Nina, Angel, Julia, Xiaoyu, Miharu, Lili, Leo and Zafina
 * Resident Evil has Jill Valentine
 * Borderlands has Lilith and Maya
 * All playable characters in Scarlet Blade are female
 * Every class in Star Wars: The Old Republic has a fully voiced female option with unique story and multiple romance arcs
 * The Princess Maker series is kind of fuzzy on who exactly the "player" is, but is clearly about exclusively female protagonists
 * The main character of the Portal series is Chell
 * The main charcter of Beyond Good and Evil is Jade
 * The main character of The Longest Journey is April Ryan
 * The rogue, amazon and sorceress, assassin in the Diablo series were exclusively female classes


...oh, look. Others have already done this:

Here's a list of 26 PAGES of games with female protagonists

If you really think there's a "shortage" of female protagonists in games, you're not looking very hard.

Actually this is a VERY important example because it shows exactly why there is an issue with women in videogames. Chun-Li by all means is the female protagonist of Street Fighter, if ANY woman can claim "main character" it would be her.

Plenty of the games in the above list feature women definitely in the role of main character. Lara Croft and Samus Aran being especially well known examples who each have an entire series of games about them...but even as far back as 1987 we had characters like Alis Landale who was a sole female protagonist who picked up a guy, a cat and a person of uncertain gender to play sidekick for her while she went off to save the solar system.

I remember playing these games as a kid. Doesn't anyone else?

This whole thing seems like a Dead Unicorn Trope to me. There have been games with exclusively female protagonists pretty much since games originally evolved to the point of having defined characters in the first place. How far back do you want to go? Pac-man? There was a Ms. Pac-man too. That was in 1982.

Only a few of those characters are from the 80s or 90s.  There certainly was a shortage back then.  There's still a problem now, but it was worse back then.

Of the 19 examples in the list, 7 have more male main characters than female characters.  Three others (Phantasy Star, Legend of Kyrandia, and Resident Evil) are game series in which the protagonist is usually male.

I had to look up Phantasy Star to be sure.  Apparently only the first game had a female heroine, followed by four sequels with male main characters (Online lets you play as a girl, though).
Amusing side note: In the third game, "At the end of each generation, the player determines the next main character by choosing which of the women encountered during the adventure the characters will marry."  This actually sounds like a fun mechanic, but it does illustrate that the series is not about female leads.

In fact it's a bit interesting to me that series which had female protagonists early on, like Resident Evil and Phantasy Star, switched the main focus to male ones.  RE still has female player characters, but the *main* character is always male now.

I do want to say that Borderlands and Left 4 Dead, despite having more male main characters, do not discriminate against women.  Zoey and Rochelle, as characters, are as well developed as the other survivors.  They look great without being unrealistically proportioned, and they wear normal clothes.  It's one of the few games where one can play as a woman, kick ass, and not *also* be male-targeted cheesecake!  This should not be so incredibly rare!

Borderlands is possibly even better.  The costumes are more sexual, but that's really true for all 8 vault hunters.  What's great is that the 2 female characters are mages of incredible power, not relegated to support roles.  There is a support character, Roland, but it matches his backstory of serving in a tight military unit.  Lillith just wants to absorb an energy field larger than her big head.  It's great!  She's a megalomaniac, not a chick.  (Her powers are also central to the story, particularly in the sequel.  It's easy to see her as the enthusiastic spiky-haired hero, dragging along her white mage Roland).

Reminds me a bit of Terra in FF6, except Borderlands is lighthearted and delightfully over the top.  Usually.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I can't remember the last time I actually hated a video game's villain... well played, Borderlands 2.

Metroid, Portal, Princess Maker, and Beyond Good and Evil are good examples. 
Yes, Princess Maker!  While technically the main character is a male badass hero who fought a demon army, the game is centered around raising his adopted daughter (I only played the second, since it was translated).  It's a good example because the daughter can succeed at whatever she trains at.  Sometimes she'll disagree with the player about what that role should be, too.  It's got a few typical "wtf japan" moments, but it's mostly very tasteful.  She can slay the god of war or be a master chef, or both, it's pretty empowering.

Metroid is pretty good.  Samus gets pretty good characterization and backstory, for being an action hero.  They pander to male gamers with cheesecake at the end of every game, but that is fairly easy to write off as *typical male-centered game development*.  It's easy to ignore because it's so common!

I guess my point was that there are very few female video game heroes, and most of them are targeted at male audiences.  There are also some great games where you can play as a woman, though.  Just not enough.

Also, it's okay for games to have weak female characters.  The problem is that women are systematically portrayed that way, almost everywhere, if they're even included at all!  I wouldn't mind the existence of hundreds of sexist games if there were more good alternatives.
(With the exception of children's games.  I wish people wouldn't program such strong gender stereotypes into their children.)

[Neonivek]

Are you saying that there is no way to write a female character correctly because if she is flawed, she will be considered a negative portrayal of women, and if she is idealized, she will be unbelievable and bland?

No, I am saying that is often what it feels like.

[Loud Whispers]

I do want to say that Borderlands and Left 4 Dead, despite having more male main characters, do not discriminate against women.  Zoey and Rochelle, as characters, are as well developed as the other survivors.  They look great without being unrealistically proportioned, and they wear normal clothes.  It's one of the few games where one can play as a woman, kick ass, and not *also* be male-targeted cheesecake!  This should not be so incredibly rare!

Yeah. Valve kicks bloody good arse at characterization. Even better when you consider they can do it through other characters' actions.

[Ogdibus]

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[Max White]

~Snip

I do believe I have already pointed out this 'Bad ass flawless female character or sexist' mentality several times already. Don't worry about it. If somebody calling themselves a feminist dislikes a female character for having flaws, that person is actually a moron and doing more harm for the feminist cause than good.

Said it before, will say it again. You are allowed to have soft, quiet females. You are allowed to have weak, dependent females. You are allowed to have any sort of female character you like! You just can't assume all female must follow a specific stereotype.

Think about it in real life terms. If a women was very quiet by nature, and somebody said they didn't mind, you wouldn't call them sexist. If instead that person decided that all women must be more outspoken, that would be sexist.

[Neonivek]

to have soft

She isn't soft. She is just quiet.

[Max White]

Might not be dependent or weak either, point was just as a generalization, not about your character specifically.

[Solifuge]

I had to look up Phantasy Star to be sure.  Apparently only the first game had a female heroine, followed by four sequels with male main characters (Online lets you play as a girl, though).
Amusing side note: In the third game, "At the end of each generation, the player determines the next main character by choosing which of the women encountered during the adventure the characters will marry."  This actually sounds like a fun mechanic, but it does illustrate that the series is not about female leads.

In fact it's a bit interesting to me that series which had female protagonists early on, like Resident Evil and Phantasy Star, switched the main focus to male ones.  RE still has female player characters, but the *main* character is always male now.

To be fair, Phantasy Star IV is one of my favorite JRPGs, and it did have a female lead character: Alys Brangwin, a clever, capable, no-nonsense monster hunter. However...

Spoiler: (THIS IS ACTUALLY A SPOILER!) Only click if you want to ruin a good oldschool RPG: (click to show/hide)

...in a highly unfortunate plot-twist, Alys dies.

At this point the story is taken over by her young, temperamental protege Chaz. He starts off on a mission of revenge against the Big Bad, but with the help of his friends eventually comes to terms with things, learns how to channel his pain and anger into a force for good, saves the day forever, etc.

The dialogue suffered a bit from the localization, but it was a pretty good story, intended to be the Send-Off for the series. Then Sonic Team bought the rights to Phantasy Star Online, and made a bunch of mediocre MMOs about sexy maid robots, giant laser swords, and ladies who get turned into horrible biomonsters. The end!