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[Putnam]

Neonivek, I think you may have too thin a definition of sexism; the definition as I use it is the entire set of social inequalities between men and women. Active sexism is misogyny; passive sexism is... society and the rest.

[Willfor]

Do you have a source for that (especially the bit in scare quotes)?

Yes, I do. It's right here.

[Neonivek]

Finally finished reading the thread.

Neither of these are sexist they are concequences of the demographics and not because of any preconceptions of gender.

Are these demographics not the result of sexism in a lot of cases?

Indeed, you are right these often ARE the results of sexism. This is why these are often reflections of our own society rather then impositions from the media.

It doesn't make the medium itself sexist, but rather that the pool of images from a society is biased towards the familiar and popular.

So we have to go further and see what things that are not part of this "natural bias" exist.

As well as how much of this Natural Bias is real and if we want to hold onto it.

"Sexism" is the same of saying "It is wrong" but it doesn't explain much.

Neonivek, I think you may have too thin a definition of sexism; the definition as I use it is the entire set of social inequalities between men and women. Active sexism is misogyny; passive sexism is... society and the rest.

Misogyny is the belief of male supperiority to my knowledge (Which can even be unsexist... but never is). Sexism is about preconceptions blanketed onto a gender as a whole.

Saying that 2 out of 5 gamers are female isn't sexist (unless that statistic turns out wrong or something). Deciding to advertise all my games to 3/5ths of the audiance isn't sexist.

You are broadening the definition of sexism because it is a powerful term but in my oppinion you are applying it incorrectly. It is why people do not call our society a "Sexist society" we call it a patriarchical society. It more accurately explains the situation.

The sexism in videogames to me often has very little to do with the roles women are given but what the expectations projected upon them are. It is one thing to have a Damsel, it is another to enforce an idea of how a damsel should act. I am reminded of a Family guy sketch of the first Mario where Princess Peach refused to kiss him and Mario got mad that she wouldn't reward him so he feeds her to King Koopa.

Now I didn't like the sketch (mostly because as I said... Mario saved Princess Peach because she was in danger, not for a kiss and would have been perfectly content without one and in fact didn't ask for a reward) but it does highlight the ways in which the Damsel role can be sexist.

It is why I consider Other M sexist and think that Peach is in fact a great female character.

[Vector]

As well just because something is sexist it doesn't indicate it is wrong, which is also important.

>_>

Neither of these are sexist they are concequences of the demographics and not because of any preconceptions of gender.

Are these demographics not the result of sexism in a lot of cases?

How so? This is question that can't be answered simply with y/n.

For example, in mathematics--regardless of what the baseline ability of women might be--women who take exams in a room full of mostly men do demonstrably worse than women who take the same exams in a room full of only women.  Men do just as well on the exam regardless of their gender proportions; similarly, women who are asked to report their gender before taking an exam do far worse than otherwise, women who have been looking at fashion magazines do worse, and etc. (for specifics, look up "stereotype threat.").  Therefore, no matter what the baseline is, there is some indicated effect of self-perception and absorption of gender stereotypes.

Also, girls who watch television have measurable drops in self-esteem afterwards, whereas white boys tend to feel better about themselves.  There's study after study about this stuff.

I suspect that more women would play shooters if they didn't have dudes screaming gendered slurs in their ears whenever they go online to do multiplayer stuff.  Regardless of female baseline interest, there is a pretty obvious sexist component that should be taken care of before we start investigating the baseline.

[Leafsnail]

Misogyny is the belief of male supperiority to my knowledge (Which can even be unsexist... but never is).

Uh... huh.

[Neonivek]

Misogyny is the belief of male supperiority to my knowledge (Which can even be unsexist... but never is).

Uh... huh.

Opps sorry I looked it up. Often that word is used to mean "a man who thinks men are great"

And no... Active sexism can easily have nothing to do with women hating. If you believed that women are all great chefs and as such the only people you hire as cooks are women... that is active sexism.

Also I said "To my knowledge" the phrase I use for "I think".

[Vector]

I think we all know by now that sexism is not something that affects only women.

[Neonivek]

I think we all know by now that sexism is not something that affects only women.

Ohh, you would be surprised. Luckly you weren't here for that. Unless you were, in which case that was pretty rocky.

[Loud Whispers]

I suspect that more women would play shooters if they didn't have dudes screaming gendered slurs in their ears whenever they go online to do multiplayer stuff.

Generally those lot shout at everyone and are confined to the hellholes of gaming communities that are barren wastelands of 10 year olds shouting slurs of all sorts.

There are quite a few issues with that.

• Why do anyone continue playing those games whilst suffering infernal squeaking? Why would it affect females more than males?
  
• What is stopping them from playing any other game?

The second one is the most important question. For example the Chess or Starcraft scene, both with wonderful communities have an astoundingly poor female representation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_chess_players

There is more. Always more, it's a very complex issue.

[Vector]

Possibly because "you fight like a boy, you dick" doesn't quite have the same ring as "you fight like a girl, you bitch/c***/t***"

Why does it affect women more?  Because, I don't know, their body parts and gendered characteristics are constantly used as insults?  Because pictures of their bodies are demanded?  Because they receive rape threats and are disproportionately more likely to have been raped?

Take a look at this.

And how about things like this?  They aren't rare.

[Reelya]

Do you have a source for that (especially the bit in scare quotes)?

Yes, I do. It's right here.

I've actually read that post before. It comes to mind, though, that lines like 'Only if they heard the name of a man in the story would they tune back in. By having women talk to each other about something other than men, I was “losing the audience.” '

combined with

'I had to understand that the audience only wanted white, straight, male leads.'

Makes me feel that the criticisms were actually about keeping the narrative focused on the protagonist, and the "talk about the men" bit is more a consequence of the mostly-male leads, and teaching the young writers to keep the narrative focused on the protagonist's story.

Also this idea that there are no black, or female leads, EVER, seems at bit at odds with reality. Will Smith is white now, is he? And the protagonist of Resident Evil is a dude, too? One wonders exactly when this woman went to film school, since she says herself she quit the industry due to her disappointment, and she has zero anecdotes about actually working in the film industry, or at least it would appear so since she doesn't list any industry experiences in that article.

[Vector]

At this point I don't really understand your position.

Sexism doesn't exist?  Female protagonists would ruin games forever?  There's no issue with the industry as-is, so why is this woman screeching, the harpy?

[Reelya]

What? please don't straw man. I'm talking about some clarification of exactly when these experiences occurred.

Also, does being "PC" allow exaggeration to the point that non white/straight/male leads don't exist? Clearly there are issues, but also quite clearly you can exaggerate things too. And this one post is the only source i have seen making this claim. Surely if something is claimed to be a general thing that pervades an entire industry, there need to be multiple sources in agreement.

[Vector]

No, I'm not straw-manning.  I'm just honestly asking what your position is, because there seems to be absolutely no piece of evidence you agree with.  I want to know what you think.

[Neonivek]

What? please don't straw man. I'm talking about some clarification of exactly when these experiences occurred.

It seems to be how this thread works. Get with the times!

First one side presents and arguement, the other strawmans, and you strawman back.