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[Loud Whispers]

That's exactly my point about the armor. They guy's armor hides their physique (which, yes, is big and muscular and idealized) while the female armor shows theirs off. That is reducing the women down to sex objects. The guys get nice protective armor but the women don't because they assume the male gamers want to see skin on the girls. How is that not sexist??

High fantasy armour is derived from medieval armour which quite frankly exaggerates male characteristics. Most of the ones built for show were built just for this, just look at Henry VIII's enlarged codpiece. When women wore armour (this was actually more common than people think) it muffled most all of their secondary sexual characteristics, except no one gave a shit because realism never gets more real than in reality.
The closer a setting where armour is needed gets to reality:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The less women in that setting can be identified as women. Translated into pop culture: Hasta la vista cult sex god status for you.
Whereas no matter what setting you go to, you can always find any snazzy armour that greatly exaggerates male secondary sexual characteristics:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So if a game developer wants to sexualize their game at the expense of realism, the only way they can for women is by making their secondary sexual characteristics blindingly obvious, even where such things would be illogical.

Creating a barrier between males and females by dividing noble characteristics into female and male characteristics, making money off of generating flak and stirring the internet hate machine and pushing for a stifling of tropes because apparently now they're sexist?

Because, as we've already discussed, the kind of tropes she's talking about and the specific examples thereof ARE sexist. You said yourself that this was trivially true.

FlyingDice:
The problem is, everything you are saying is invalid for reasons we already discussed, specifically because no one is talking about literary devices. We are talking about resonant tropes - genre/industry motifs. I was under the impression we'd moved on from that - I don't understand why it's coming back.

I am talking about literary tropes and the fact that the damsel in distress specifically is not sexist. I thought what you thought but inverted and still do. And yes, she does draw a line between male and female protagonists based merely off of their non-existent genitals.

[Mephansteras]

You give the average consumer waaaaay too much credit. Also, you underestimate the ability cultural norms to keep people from thinking about things. Humans simply don't pay attention to things that are 'normal'. They just don't.

Then perhaps you should also consider we do not all live in countries where the nuclear unit is normal?

Missed this before. But I don't get your point here. We're talking about mainstream gaming culture and industry. If wherever you live is different and doesn't have this problem at all, great, but I don't see how that effects the overall culture of gaming and the industry.

[Flying Dice]

FlyingDice:
The problem is, everything you are saying is invalid for reasons we already discussed, specifically because no one is talking about literary devices. We are talking about resonant tropes - genre/industry motifs. I was under the impression we'd moved on from that - I don't understand why it's coming back.

Most of that was directed more towards LW to get across the point that tropes themselves are by-and-large not the issue here.

[GlyphGryph]

But LoudWhisper, the problem is you are the only person talking about literary tropes. Anita certainly isn't - she's talking about resonant tropes. At this point, I can only believe that you are intentionally muddying the conversation.

[Loud Whispers]

You give the average consumer waaaaay too much credit. Also, you underestimate the ability cultural norms to keep people from thinking about things. Humans simply don't pay attention to things that are 'normal'. They just don't.

Then perhaps you should also consider we do not all live in countries where the nuclear unit is normal?

Missed this before. But I don't get your point here. We're talking about mainstream gaming culture and industry. If wherever you live is different and doesn't have this problem at all, great, but I don't see how that effects the overall culture of gaming and the industry.

Because games created and marketed in the country are made for will reflect the cultural standards of aforementioned country. Hence why it relevant to not homogenize the industry into one mass.

But LoudWhisper, the problem is you are the only person talking about literary tropes. Anita certainly isn't - she's talking about resonant tropes. At this point, I can only believe that you are intentionally muddying the conversation.

If so, excuse me while I re-watch her videos. My intention has been stated, and I think Anita is talking about literary tropes. Hence the title.

[Neonivek]

I want to see a comparative analysis of Tropes vs Men in Romance Novels. Maybe Romantic Comedies worth a look too.

Fenrir already hit this, but it deserves thorough coverage. Harmful representations of women are problems because they reinforce existing societal biases. Similarly harmful representations of men are much less serious because, even if someone makes a joke about men being terrible with directions or emotional interaction (etc., etc.), men are still an "alpha" class in our society and are rarely/never denied (either explicitly or implicitly) an opportunity because of their sex.

But as a society we cannot throw aside any sexism because of percieved power or lack of power.

Especially since as women gain more power in our society we are going to be left with "acceptible sexism towards males".

It isn't the fact that Men are "Alpha" that makes it "less serious" it is the fact that men playing other roles are taken less seriously then women playing other roles that dulls it but doesn't excuse it. In the same way that we cannot say that women are so less then men that we don't have to pay them any attention because they are unimportant.

MIND YOU! Prince Alexander is a soft spoken male protagonist and is hated for it (DANG IT people! Soft Spoken smart witty well read kind hearted protagonist is practically my perfect videogame character. How DARE you insult him!)

It is actually one of the ways a lot of people are sexist in trying not to be sexist is outright diminishing any kind of sexism that isn't dirrected at women. It is actually very offensive.

[GlyphGryph]

She is talking about tropes in the TVTropes way most people do nowadays. And the TVTropes "about tropes" page explicitly mentions the site tracks resonant tropes, not literary ones.

Although the site pretty often confuses the two as well, and there is distinct overlap. The front page says "devices AND conventions", but Damsel in Distress is more the second than the first, and it's the convention bit that is critique worthy. At the very least, it's obvious that she's critiquing the cultural aspect, not the mechanical ones.

[Mephansteras]

You give the average consumer waaaaay too much credit. Also, you underestimate the ability cultural norms to keep people from thinking about things. Humans simply don't pay attention to things that are 'normal'. They just don't.

Then perhaps you should also consider we do not all live in countries where the nuclear unit is normal?

Missed this before. But I don't get your point here. We're talking about mainstream gaming culture and industry. If wherever you live is different and doesn't have this problem at all, great, but I don't see how that effects the overall culture of gaming and the industry.

Because games created and marketed in the country are made for will reflect the cultural standards of aforementioned country. Hence why it relevant to not homogenize the industry into one mass.

Um...Unless I'm mistaken, we're talking about mainstream gaming in Western countries + Japan and the sexism issues there. The vast majority of game publishers fall into that category and I'm pretty certain that the US dominates the industry.

We're talking about a pervasive problem in the industry. It's not a problem in every single game or every single publisher. I don't think anyone is saying that. It is, however, a very common problem that people are trying to address.

Saying it's not a problem for every country/segment of the industry isn't really helpful unless you're using examples of those segments as ways it is being done better.

[penguinofhonor]

It is actually one of the ways a lot of people are sexist in trying not to be sexist is outright diminishing any kind of sexism that isn't dirrected at women. It is actually very offensive.

Let's not turn this into a discussion of sexism against men. That's one of those derails that you can't recover from.

[Fenrir]

I want to see a comparative analysis of Tropes vs Men in Romance Novels. Maybe Romantic Comedies worth a look too.

Fenrir already hit this, but it deserves thorough coverage. Harmful representations of women are problems because they reinforce existing societal biases. Similarly harmful representations of men are much less serious because, even if someone makes a joke about men being terrible with directions or emotional interaction (etc., etc.), men are still an "alpha" class in our society and are rarely/never denied (either explicitly or implicitly) an opportunity because of their sex.

But as a society we cannot throw aside any sexism because of percieved power or lack of power.

Especially since as women gain more power in our society we are going to be left with "acceptible sexism towards males".

It isn't the fact that Men are "Alpha" that makes it "less serious" it is the fact that men playing other roles are taken less seriously then women playing other roles that dulls it but doesn't excuse it. In the same way that we cannot say that women are so less then men that we don't have to pay them any attention because they are unimportant.

MIND YOU! Prince Alexander is a soft spoken male protagonist and is hated for it (DANG IT people! Soft Spoken smart witty well read kind hearted protagonist is practically my perfect videogame character. How DARE you insult him!)

It is actually one of the ways a lot of people are sexist in trying not to be sexist is outright diminishing any kind of sexism that isn't dirrected at women. It is actually very offensive.

“This man has been shot. We need to get him to the hospital!”

“Hey, that’s not fair. I have this paper cut, and no one is driving me to the hospital. If we take him to the hospital, all we will be left with is this acceptable paper cut. It doesn’t hurt as much, sure, but it still an injury. I saw this other guy get a paper cut, and that made me feel sorry for him. A lot of people are treating gunshot wounds but they’re overlooking all the paper cuts.  And that’s terrible.”

[Loud Whispers]

Saying it's not a problem for every country/segment of the industry isn't really helpful unless you're using examples of those segments as ways it is being done better.

As is saying it's a problem for the entire industry. It's counter-productive either way you generalize it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Only two people there are competent at what they do.

[GlyphGryph]

Saying it's not a problem for every country/segment of the industry isn't really helpful unless you're using examples of those segments as ways it is being done better.

As is saying it's a problem for the entire industry. It's counter-productive either way you generalize it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Only two people there are competent at what they do.

And that is a problem for the ENTIRE team - even the competent ones. Even if some part of the gaming industry avoids an issue, the industry, taken as a whole, can still suffer for it.

[Mephansteras]

I'm....not even sure what your point is. That parts of the industry are fine so there isn't any point in talking about the parts that have problems? That there isn't a problem?

And I really don't get the scooby doo picture.

Whatever. You're either a troll or our values are so different that the conversation is useless.

I'm out. Have fun guys.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm....not even sure what your point is. That parts of the industry are fine so there isn't any point in talking about the parts that have problems? That there isn't a problem?

At what point did I say this? I'm saying homogenizing the entire gaming industry into one mass of sexualizing stereotypes is counter-productive to progressing towards fair representation. That point has been rather clear.

And I really don't get the scooby doo picture.

Scooby Doo's been around for over 40 years, the lead male is strong and brave yet hopeless without his gang, the dog is a dog, the other male is cowardly and a comic relief character, whereas the of the two female characters one has enough martial prowess to eat steel FBs whilst outsmarting electricity with a great fashion sense and the other is a braniac juggernaut. To say all works, indeed even in mainstream culture have employed sexist resonating tropes to achieve their mainstream status is to overlook the fact that consumers are not idiots nor do they pay for an experience they will not enjoy.

Whatever. You're either a troll or our values are so different that the conversation is useless.

I'm out. Have fun guys.

Gra. And I even made a thread about how the use of troll is misused. If our values are so different then conversation is exactly what would allow us to comprehend each others' values. This thread hasn't had a lot of conclusions but the one thing it has had is understanding. Labeling anyone you disagree with a troll before departing is hardly helpful to the condition of the thread or any discussion really.

[Mephansteras]

I'm....not even sure what your point is. That parts of the industry are fine so there isn't any point in talking about the parts that have problems? That there isn't a problem?

At what point did I say this? I'm saying homogenizing the entire gaming industry into one mass of sexualizing stereotypes is counter-productive to progressing towards fair representation. That point has been rather clear.

And I really don't get the scooby doo picture.

Scooby Doo's been around for over 40 years, the lead male is strong and brave yet hopeless without his gang, the dog is a dog, the other male is cowardly and a comic relief character, whereas the of the two female characters one has enough martial prowess to eat steel FBs whilst outsmarting electricity with a great fashion sense and the other is a braniac juggernaut. To say all works, indeed even in mainstream culture have employed sexist resonating tropes to achieve their mainstream status is to overlook the fact that consumers are not idiots nor do they pay for an experience they will not enjoy.

Whatever. You're either a troll or our values are so different that the conversation is useless.

I'm out. Have fun guys.

Gra. And I even made a thread about how the use of troll is misused. If our values are so different then conversation is exactly what would allow us to comprehend each others' values. This thread hasn't had a lot of conclusions but the one thing it has had is understanding. Labeling anyone you disagree with a troll before departing is hardly helpful to the condition of the thread or any discussion really.

Ok, since you did actually make an effort answer me clearly here I'll reply, although I may still leave after this.

First off, I did use Troll in its proper term. As in, someone Trolling for reactions from people rather than actually trying to communicate. Hence the OR in there, if you were trying to communicate but the communication was failing.

I'm sorry if I've completely misunderstood you, but I still don't get your point. That generalizations are bad? I've never said that the entire gaming industry is sexist, just that rampant sexism in the industry was a problem. Even if only half the industry is sexist it would still be a problem, and I think it's much more than half. Heck, even if it was less than half it could still be a problem worth discussing.

So let's be clear: What is your stance on the issue?

My stance is that there is a problem, and that it is one that is aided by raising people's awareness of the issue. I've worked in the industry, I've worked firsthand with developers and artists. I've known people actually making games who didn't realize that some of the stuff they did was sexist until someone pointed it out. I also know that a lot of the problem is management and PR folks who know damn well that they're objectifying women with their characterizations and justify it by saying that Sex Sells.

If you raise awareness you get more people to question these decisions and push back against the industry. It's slow, but it's a good way of making social progress in the long term and since part of the goal is to get society as a whole moving towards equality, slow but broad is better than quick but regulation-based.