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[Vector]

Yeah.  I think that my primary objection is that with Minsc, the story really brings home just how messed up he is.  For Aerie, there's no development outside of her talking from time to time, no definitive sidequest the way there is for everyone else romanceable.  Mazzie has her citadel, Jaheira has her curse, Viconia has the trip into the Underdark, the paladin dude has his little Blackguard problem, and Imoen is central to the plot--but Aerie's got nothing.

[DJ]

Well, it's not on screen, but IIRC you can see it on her character page. Basically she spent a long time in slavery, being exhibited as a circus freak thanks to her wings, and unceremoniously tossed aside when they cut her wings off due to infection. And this happened to a truly nice person, incapable of comprehending such malice. It's really no wonder that the experience broke her. And yeah, it would've been good if she could get some resolution on screen and mend those wounds, but frankly I just don't see how such wounds can ever be mended. Any sort of side-plot for her would've just felt inadequate.

[Reelya]

All right.  Do you know of any trans female main characters outside of dating games?  I don't.

I do, it isn't what I would like to see but it is a start.
Actually I'm hesitant to even mention her because of how clearly sexist the character is, but still, honesty is honesty. Final Fight: Poison.

Also, is the Persona series a dating sim?

All right.  Do you know of any trans female main characters outside of dating games?  I don't. 

I'm fairly certain there's been a couple of text-based ones along those lines. I mean, like one or two. Then a single-digit amount of experimental stuff related to it. From what I remember at least one or two of them were pretty specifically done by the MtF trans game developer whose name I've forgotten. One of her games was that female-protagonist upward scrolling jumpy thingy from a few years back. Pretty damn rare stuff, though.

Color me impressed =)  Also, I wouldn't take Persona as a dating sim, no--I'm really trying to specifically eliminate characters who solely embody fetishism.

Corruption of Champions is one such text game: with the right potions you can genderswap or become just about any imaginable trans / straight / gay / bi combo you like.

[Ogdibus]

.

[Vector]

And yeah, it would've been good if she could get some resolution on screen and mend those wounds, but frankly I just don't see how such wounds can ever be mended. Any sort of side-plot for her would've just felt inadequate.

Oh, I didn't mean necessarily mending.  Like I said--maybe it only causes more trauma, maybe it's just a random sidequest she's invested in, maybe she gets randomly interested in some little kid.  I wanted to see more of her than a traumatized woman, because trauma victims are, well, not all exactly the same person.

[Patchouli]

All right.  Do you know of any trans female main characters outside of dating games?  I don't.

I do, it isn't what I would like to see but it is a start.
Actually I'm hesitant to even mention her because of how clearly sexist the character is, but still, honesty is honesty. Final Fight: Poison.

Also, is the Persona series a dating sim?

All right.  Do you know of any trans female main characters outside of dating games?  I don't. 

I'm fairly certain there's been a couple of text-based ones along those lines. I mean, like one or two. Then a single-digit amount of experimental stuff related to it. From what I remember at least one or two of them were pretty specifically done by the MtF trans game developer whose name I've forgotten. One of her games was that female-protagonist upward scrolling jumpy thingy from a few years back. Pretty damn rare stuff, though.

Color me impressed =)  Also, I wouldn't take Persona as a dating sim, no--I'm really trying to specifically eliminate characters who solely embody fetishism.

I could think of one off the top of my head, but spoilers make it difficult. I don't want to even post it here because of the risk of accidentally spoiling others. If you're still interested in an example at the expense of being spoiled for a PS3/360 game, send me a message!

[Reelya]

If it is lower, MW, I'd wager it's 'cause the environment surrounding the skillsets needed for game development is still a bit toxic to females (programming specifically... from what I understand, it's a bit less troubled in the graphic design et al arena). S'true both in and out and academia, unfortunately. It gets harder to learn when there's barriers into the communities that build up around what you're trying to learn, yeah?

IDK, we got a computer when I was 12 in the mid 1980's, i have 2 sisters and am the only boy in the family, other than my dad. I got obsessed with programming straight away with no encouragement from anyone else, but both my sisters never showed any interest in getting into it. All of us got exactly the same schooling, same classes. Exactly how did "community barriers" play into this effect? Home computers were pretty much the latest thing, and not everyone had them yet, so there was no widespread preexisting social expectation that "computers were for boys". and my sisters certainly played enough of the same games that i did, and were never discouraged from using the computer, they just never cared about "looking under the hood".

[Blargityblarg]

If it is lower, MW, I'd wager it's 'cause the environment surrounding the skillsets needed for game development is still a bit toxic to females (programming specifically... from what I understand, it's a bit less troubled in the graphic design et al arena). S'true both in and out and academia, unfortunately. It gets harder to learn when there's barriers into the communities that build up around what you're trying to learn, yeah?

IDK, we got a computer when I was 12 in the mid 1980's, i have 2 sisters and am the only boy in the family, other than my dad. I got obsessed with programming straight away with no encouragement from anyone else, but both my sisters never showed any interest in getting into it. All of us got exactly the same schooling, same classes. Exactly how did "community barriers" play into this effect? Home computers were pretty much the latest thing, and not everyone had them yet, so there was no widespread preexisting social expectation that "computers were for boys". and my sisters certainly played enough of the same games that i did, and were never discouraged from using the computer, they just never cared about "looking under the hood".

Going to the same schools, being in the same community etc. doesn't necessarily mean you're getting the same experience.

[alexandertnt]

Programming is often seen as a "boys thing". The thing that makes if quite a complex issue is that it is not the fault of any singular person (I dont know of anyone doing programming courses that has anything at all against women programming). Instead it appears that the fact that the vast majority of people in programming courses are male creates this image, and it ends up as a positive feedback loop.

[Reelya]

If it is lower, MW, I'd wager it's 'cause the environment surrounding the skillsets needed for game development is still a bit toxic to females (programming specifically... from what I understand, it's a bit less troubled in the graphic design et al arena). S'true both in and out and academia, unfortunately. It gets harder to learn when there's barriers into the communities that build up around what you're trying to learn, yeah?

Programming is often seen as a "boys thing". The thing that makes if quite a complex issue is that it is not the fault of any singular person (I dont know of anyone doing programming courses that has anything at all against women programming). Instead it appears that the fact that the vast majority of people in programming courses are male creates this image, and it ends up as a positive feedback loop.

Yeah, but i'm talking at the dawn of home computing, amongst kids who had NO IDEA about the industry, didn't really know any other families with computers, before we even had internet or media protrayals of "hackers", and "geeks" on TV. How are kids who's only exposure and knowledge to programming is the book on programming which came with their new computer automatically dividing with 90% accuracy into boys who become computer obsessed, and girls who DGAF. We're talking little kids here who didn't know the first thing about programming courses being male-dominated.

Your "positive feedback loop" can't explain that. Little kids have NO IDEA about what's happening in any industry or college course. And this was pretty much universal over a decade before the web became a household reality.

[scriver]

Given what she's been through, it's a wonder she can do anything at all. I know people IRL who have been through less than that in Bosnian war, but it left them broken shells, too caught up in the past to do anything in the present. She is first and foremost a PTSD sufferer, her gender is incidental. And if you switched her and Minsc around, ie if she was a mentally challenged brute incapable of functioning in society without a handler, and he was a big bundle of insecurity and self-pity, would it still be sexist? IMO both personalities are about equally weak, just in different ways. What would you really want, stories that don't have any characters with such deep flaws? Because IMO that wouldn't make for very engaging stories.

The problem is not that she is "flawed" or "broken", like I said, all the other female (and the male as well for that matter) characters are flawed and broken in some or several ways, and I have no issue with them. The problem us that she is Weak, a Damsel. That is her character and character arc. She is a platitude and a great example of the Broken Bird who can't survive on her own, a frail little girl who needs a Man to come and save her, somebody so pure that having sex with her before marriage True Love ruins her forever. Oh and how do we know it's True Love when they finally get to make love without breaking her? Because she gets pregnant, of course. She's literally a cavalcade of one sexist cliche after another. She isn't isn't a deep character, she's a ridiculous wish fulfillment fantasy for boys who want to be Knights In Shining Armour. Even Korgan has a deeper characterization than her.

And no, you can't turn it around and have Minsc act that way instead. That's the thing with sexist tropes, they are not equal between genders. That's what makes them sexist. A Big Fighter Dude like Minsc taking Aerie's place would be interesting and refreshing, because you very rarely see men in that position, let alone Big Fighter Dudes. He would still be a flat character and have no character development, but then again, he didn't have any in the OC anyway.

Also, about Aerie not having a sidequest? She did have one planned, but it was scrapped for one reason or another, like so many other things with BG. It dealt with her wing issues, of course. And you know what the Good ending was? Not helping her overcome (or hell, even helping her start to deal with) said issues. Not finding a easy to magically grow her wings back. The "Good" ending was turning her into a bird. Permanently. Yay great ending resolves nothing!

IDK, we got a computer when I was 12 in the mid 1980's, i have 2 sisters and am the only boy in the family, other than my dad. I got obsessed with programming straight away with no encouragement from anyone else, but both my sisters never showed any interest in getting into it. All of us got exactly the same schooling, same classes. Exactly how did "community barriers" play into this effect? Home computers were pretty much the latest thing, and not everyone had them yet, so there was no widespread preexisting social expectation that "computers were for boys". and my sisters certainly played enough of the same games that i did, and were never discouraged from using the computer, they just never cared about "looking under the hood".

Yeah, but i'm talking at the dawn of home computing, amongst kids who had NO IDEA about the industry, didn't really know any other families with computers, before we even had internet or media protrayals of "hackers", and "geeks" on TV. How are kids who's only exposure and knowledge to programming is the book on programming which came with their new computer automatically dividing with 90% accuracy into boys who become computer obsessed, and girls who DGAF. We're talking little kids here who didn't know the first thing about programming courses being male-dominated.

Your "positive feedback loop" can't explain that. Little kids have NO IDEA about what's happening in any industry or college course. And this was pretty much universal over a decade before the web became a household reality.

The social expectations does not just affect programming in itself, but extends to all technical, engineeringal and mechanical things. "Looking under the hood", as you so aptly described it, is in itself viewed as something boys and not girls should do, whether it comes to computers or cars.

[Reelya]

The social expectations does not just affect programming in itself, but extends to all technical, engineeringal and mechanical things. "Looking under the hood", as you so aptly described it, is in itself viewed as something boys and not girls should do, whether it comes to computers or cars.

Lol, my dad was no mechanic, and i never been encouraged to touch a car in my life, or saw him do any sort of electrical work etc except maybe change a light bulb. Gotta explain me, a son of a guy with zero technical aptitude, becomes a computer obsessive, and both my sisters, zero interest. They're both very strong-willed in what they do, so this "victim-mentality" where they've apparently been so beaten-down be society, to be too timid to touch machines, doesn't sit well with my experiences.

[Vector]

Programming is often seen as a "boys thing". The thing that makes if quite a complex issue is that it is not the fault of any singular person (I dont know of anyone doing programming courses that has anything at all against women programming). Instead it appears that the fact that the vast majority of people in programming courses are male creates this image, and it ends up as a positive feedback loop.

I dunno, in the programming course I took in college we were given a guide on "how to socialize like a programmer" that literally included "don't let us think you're a girl unless you're interested in sex, not answers."

Lol, my dad was no mechanic, and i never been encouraged to touch a car in my life, or saw him do any sort of electrical work etc except maybe change a light bulb. Gotta explain me, a son of a guy with zero technical aptitude, becomes a computer obsessive, and both my sisters, zero interest. They're both very strong-willed in what they do, so this "victim-mentality" where they've apparently been so beaten-down be society, to be too timid to touch machines, doesn't sit well with my experiences.

Sure, here's your explanation: Large Law of Small Numbers.  I'm the most talented computer person in any part of my family by far.  I happen to be female.  No one else showed any interest.  I have plenty of male relatives.  I guess that demonstrates that women are just that much more interested than men in computers, and men would prefer to study things like accounting and the classics because they really aren't very technically adept.

[chaoticag]

I also should point out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace#First_computer_program

The first computer programmer from the dawn of time of computer programming was a woman.

[Reelya]

Programming is often seen as a "boys thing". The thing that makes if quite a complex issue is that it is not the fault of any singular person (I dont know of anyone doing programming courses that has anything at all against women programming). Instead it appears that the fact that the vast majority of people in programming courses are male creates this image, and it ends up as a positive feedback loop.

I dunno, in the programming course I took in college we were given a guide on "how to socialize like a programmer" that literally included "don't let us think you're a girl unless you're interested in sex, not answers."

Lol, my dad was no mechanic, and i never been encouraged to touch a car in my life, or saw him do any sort of electrical work etc except maybe change a light bulb. Gotta explain me, a son of a guy with zero technical aptitude, becomes a computer obsessive, and both my sisters, zero interest. They're both very strong-willed in what they do, so this "victim-mentality" where they've apparently been so beaten-down be society, to be too timid to touch machines, doesn't sit well with my experiences.

Sure, here's your explanation: Large Law of Small Numbers.  I'm the most talented computer person in any part of my family by far.  I happen to be female.  No one else showed any interest.  I have plenty of male relatives.  I guess that demonstrates that women are just that much more interested than men in computers, and men would prefer to study things like accounting and the classics because they really aren't very technically adept.

Does your anecdote correlate well with the overall population?

Of course there's overlap, but overlap doesn't mean that trends don't exist. For almost any male, you can find at least 1 female that is taller, but that in no way contradicts the assertion that males on average are taller.

Also, there is the bell curve for IQ and other aptitude tests, for males vs females: the mean and median scores are the same, for males the curve is flatter: more samples at the bottom, as well as the top. Females are clustered more to the center. To say this is a socially-constructed statistic, you have to show how whatever the tests are measuring is somehow biased both towards and against males at the same time. The effect of this flatter distribution means that when you take samples near the extremes, you get many males. This well-established statistical anomaly explains a lot about the relative abundance of males in high levels of academia (since you're selecting small samples of top performers),  and the larger numbers of females at the undergraduate level (since females overall outnumber males when you combine middle-to-high scorers).

There are some interesting findings (to show that there are some innate personality trends which show gender-bias) from people who've studied statistics from the Kibbutz system in Israel (care of one of Susan Pinker's books): kids forced to assimilate with completely gender neutral job allocations, ended up more socially segregated by gender when they graduated than regular populations: out of 1000's sampled almost none of the boys from the kibbutz ever wanted to change another nappy, and they went into child-care professions at a much lower rate than random males who were never "assimilated", and very few Kibbutz women - those who worked with tractors and machines in equal amounts to the males - chose to go into any industry engineering or construction-related.

So, the kibbutz data seems to show that forced gender-neutral-integration caused a self-assertion of existing "gender norms", rather than creating a "gender-neutral" norm.


Actually i can go one better than I thought since the passage in question is in Google Books: The study is cited on page 98.