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[DJ]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aerie

[alexandertnt]

Baldur's Gate, Imoen. Is she a helpless sex object, or a bad-ass warrior heroine? What about Tandi, of Fallout fame?

Cherry picked examples at best implies "not all games are sexist", not "gaming in general is not sexist".

Ah, so it's not allowed to have on single weak female character, because females are naturally exempt from being weak? Even if there's a perfectly reasonable backstory that explains her personality? But there's no problem with weak male characters? Isn't that a bit sexist?

The general concensus of this thread seems to be that the ubiquity of the weak female character in the gaming industry is what is sexist.

And no, the backstory does not justify anything. The backstory, much like the character, is still manufactured and is vunerable to the same problems that a character would be.

It seems some people (I talking "in general on the internet", not anyone in particular) seem to think that having a backstory to justify these rols of females implies that there is no sexism in the industry, despite the backstory being a product of the industry.

[Max White]

Ah, so it's not allowed to have on single weak female character, because females are naturally exempt from being weak? Even if there's a perfectly reasonable backstory that explains her personality? But there's no problem with weak male characters (Minsc is pretty weak in his own kind of way)? Isn't that a bit sexist?

Nope, like I said, if they aren't the protagonist of the game, and beating down baddies while acting as a font of self expression, they are sexist.
Sweet, sensitive and dependent is bad. Not showing the great physical strength is bad. Accepting help from a male is bad. Anything phallic shaped is bad.


In case you are wondering, yes, I feel we have reached the point where constructive discussion has been had, we have analysed to our fullest, and unless somebody says something new and interesting, I'm just going to sit in full parody mode.

[chaoticag]

Well, reading on Aerie, all she ever seems to get help from is male characters. They seem to be the only people to "fix" her, so yeaaaaaaah. That is a pretty bad example of a not sexist weak female character.

[Vector]

Uh. . . wow, DJ, strawman much?

I don't have any problem with vulnerability.  In fact, meaningful vulnerability is one of the things I like best in characters across all media (Jaheira had moments of vulnerability!  That was what made her so stinkin' cool!  Paired with Minsc, they were beyond awesome!).  But what I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be much mediation between badass warrior princess and, well, whatever Aerie was.

EDIT: For example, I loved both Final Fantasy IX and Tales of Symphonia.  In both of these, a very sweet and sensitive female character loses her voice and becomes next-to-useless in combat; and in both cases, I kept them in my party anyway, because I wanted them around.  I loved Vivi.  I was bonkers about Kratos and Regal.  One of the reasons why I like MGSIV so much was because Snake became a vulnerable old man.

But I'm not interested in constant whining that is never developed into anything else.  If my (usually male!) character had randomly decided to go take out the people who made Aerie's capture possible, I would have felt better about it.  There could have been Plot and Character Development and all that good stuff.  But no, instead we have a mage who constantly gets one-shotted and spends huge amounts of time whining in a non-entertaining way, much as I feel bad for her.

Hell, if she had gotten kidnapped again, I would have been happier.  At the very least, her story would have felt immediate.

[DJ]

No, it's examples that support my point - well-written games don't overuse tropes. It's just that vast majority of games have shitty writers, who recycle tropes not because they think women are less capable but because previous games did it. And I imagine the first ones that did it picked it up from fairy tales, because the games were marketed to kids back then. So what we really should be doing is hunting down every last copy of Andersen's and Grimm brothers' works and burning it.

And Baldur's Gate has several weak male characters, and plenty of strong female ones, so what in nine hells is wrong with having one weak female? It would be sexist if females were predominantly weak, but they're not. The implication is that women are somehow physically incapable of being weak, ie they're not real persons.

As for needing players' help, Minsc couldn't tie his shoelaces on his own. And I really don't see how there's no medium ground, because all the other female characters fall right into it.

And you people really need to post slower, I can never catch up with all the new replies as I type my post.

[chaoticag]

@Vector

So I guess the videogame equivelent of the Madonna whore complex is the Xena-Aerie one? You're either one or the other, with little in between?

[DJ]

Yeah, so which one of the two is Imoen?

[Vector]

Imoen is neither, thank goodness.  Though yes, there is usually very little space between "I will rip your spine out and beat you to death with it Because" and "Ooh, save me mister."

Please see my edit.  Also, "not much mediation" != "no mediation."

[DJ]

Jaheira may be really close to badass heroine, but she's a far cry from "I will rip your spine out and beat you to death with it". And I wouldn't call Dynaheil a helpless damsel in distress either, even if she does get rescues by the protagonist. So yeah, that's what, 3/4 middle ground so far?

[Vector]

Wait, who is Dynaheil?  I don't think I found her in any of my games ._.

I'm not arguing about Baldur's Gate in general (though the lack of love subplots if you're playing a female character sort of sucks)--sorry if I've made that unclear.  For me, this is about Aerie in particular.

[DJ]

Typo, was supposed to be Dynaheir. She is the witch that Minsc is bodyguarding, ie the person that kept Minsc alive up until he joined the party, because he wouldn't make it a day on his own (as evidenced by his suicidal attack on the protagonist's party if you refuse to help him) which IMO makes him even weaker than Aerie. Oh, and later on Minsc fails to save her, even though his entire life revolves around protecting her. Which really messes him up, but guess who glues the pieces back together - Aerie. As for Aerie herself, she's a textbook PTSD case, which I guess be kinda annoying based on some war veterans I know IRL.

[Vector]

Perhaps this would have been helped by my having finished BGI.  These are excellent points, though.  Thank you for engaging with me--it's thought-provoking, as always.

[scriver]

Dynaheir isn't in BG2, Vector, if that's the only one you've played.

No, it's examples that support my point - well-written games don't overuse tropes. It's just that vast majority of games have shitty writers, who recycle tropes not because they think women are less capable but because previous games did it. And I imagine the first ones that did it picked it up from fairy tales, because the games were marketed to kids back then. So what we really should be doing is hunting down every last copy of Andersen's and Grimm brothers' works and burning it.

And Baldur's Gate has several weak male characters, and plenty of strong female ones, so what in nine hells is wrong with having one weak female? It would be sexist if females were predominantly weak, but they're not. The implication is that women are somehow physically incapable of being weak, ie they're not real persons.

As for needing players' help, Minsc couldn't tie his shoelaces on his own. And I really don't see how there's no medium ground, because all the other female characters fall right into it.

And you people really need to post slower, I can never catch up with all the new replies as I type my post.

The problem isn't that Aerie have weaknesses. Viconia has weaknesses. Jaheira has weaknesses. Imoen, Mazzy, they all have weaknesses and weak moments. The problem is that Aerie is a weak character, defined by her weakness and how she need help from the (Male) Protagonist. Aerie, Mazzy, Viconia and Imoen all need to be saved when you meet them (Jaheira doesn't count because you are in the same predicament), but Aerie is the only damsel in distress among them.

[DJ]

Given what she's been through, it's a wonder she can do anything at all. I know people IRL who have been through less than that in Bosnian war, but it left them broken shells, too caught up in the past to do anything in the present. She is first and foremost a PTSD sufferer, her gender is incidental. And if you switched her and Minsc around, ie if she was a mentally challenged brute incapable of functioning in society without a handler, and he was a big bundle of insecurity and self-pity, would it still be sexist? IMO both personalities are about equally weak, just in different ways. What would you really want, stories that don't have any characters with such deep flaws? Because IMO that wouldn't make for very engaging stories.