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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 309298 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #166 on: March 27, 2013, 12:34:36 pm »

Just about sums up all the wrong things about her videos.
And this is a response that sums up what's wrong with that video
"The Story of Troy and the Ramayana are both Damsel in Distress stories."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tl;dr

The characters are for the writer to use to the best of their ability to further the enjoyment of the audience and the story. In whichever order. If they would so wish to create entirely one dimensional characters... So be it. They will incur the self penalties of sloth.

*EDIT
Fixed quasi-obnoxious font
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:04:17 pm by Loud Whispers »
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i2amroy

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #167 on: March 27, 2013, 12:51:15 pm »

-snip-
You might want to tone down the large font there a little. I can understand it for emphasis, but it gets kind of annoying in an analysis that long.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #168 on: March 27, 2013, 01:02:35 pm »

-snip-
You might want to tone down the large font there a little. I can understand it for emphasis, but it gets kind of annoying in an analysis that long.
It's not for emphasis, spoilers make everything inside them reaaaaalllyyyy small.

Solifuge

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #169 on: March 27, 2013, 01:05:58 pm »

The characters are for the writer to use to the best of their ability to further the enjoyment of the audience and the story. In whichever order. If they would so wish to create entirely one dimensional characters... So be it. They will incur the self penalties of sloth.

Would that the cost was that small, or the problem that simple.

Fictional media has been shown to impact our opinions, the way we socialize with others, and so on. Stories go beyond entertainment, and act as social-simulators for us. Anyone who's ever identified with a character in a story should be able to see that.

In the era of mass media, where one person's story can reach and affect everyone within a culture (take the popularity of Harry Potter, Call of Duty, and so on for examples), storytellers have a responsibility to consider how they portray their characters, and the roles they fill. It doesn't matter if they're authors, game designers, movie directors, or whatever. These fictional characters will inform our opinions on real people who share traits with them, and shape our opinions on world issues.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #170 on: March 27, 2013, 01:15:12 pm »

Quote
You can have a good damsel in distress story and not be sexist, but it requires good story telling, and that requires effort

Well no, Damsel in distress isn't an inherantly sexist trope. I know this because it isn't sexist when a male is in that role either (Dang it Wally!).

It was never the existance of this trope but the excessive proliferation and its misuse within a story.

Or rather when someone adds a damsel it isn't sexist

When 90% of the plots involve a damsel it is concerning.

When a competent character is deligated to damsel for no reason, it is also concerning.

Quote
The Damsel in Distress trope is sexist

Switch the gender, is it still sexist?

There are tropes where once reversed are rather sexist.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:22:26 pm by Neonivek »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #171 on: March 27, 2013, 01:15:46 pm »

Would that the cost was that small, or the problem that simple.

Fictional media has been shown to impact our opinions, the way we socialize with others, and so on. Stories go beyond entertainment, and act as social-simulators for us. Anyone who's ever identified with a character in a story should be able to see that.

In the era of mass media, where one person's story can reach and affect everyone within a culture (take the popularity of Harry Potter, Call of Duty, and so on for examples), storytellers have a responsibility to consider how they portray their characters, and the roles they fill. It doesn't matter if they're authors, game designers, movie directors, or whatever. These fictional characters will inform our opinions on real people who share traits with them, and shape our opinions on world issues.
This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.

PanH

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #172 on: March 27, 2013, 01:28:17 pm »

This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.
So, a story that is sexist wouldn't be sexist because readers would choose (or not) to read it ?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #173 on: March 27, 2013, 01:29:43 pm »

This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.
So, a story that is sexist wouldn't be sexist because readers would choose (or not) to read it ?
It'd still be sexist, just no one'd be reading it.

And to reiterate my stance on sexist tropes: I deny they exist. All it takes is to reverse the genders playing the roles and it's fine again? It never was  problem to begin with then. There is a clear line between sexism and old themes.

I mean I don't care much for vidyas, but calling the Iliad a Damsel in distress story? Borderline blasphemy!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:33:58 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Ogdibus

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #174 on: March 27, 2013, 01:33:00 pm »

.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 03:40:12 pm by Ogdibus »
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #175 on: March 27, 2013, 01:33:45 pm »

This is no problem. People can pick and choose whatever it is they identify with - at the end of the day their actions are theirs' responsibility alone. Authors, game designers and whatever should not be restricted to whatever conforms to accepted societal standards because it may influence people to x. This is perhaps the most fortunate part of the videos being redundant - sexism is not socially endorsed.
So, a story that is sexist wouldn't be sexist because readers would choose (or not) to read it ?
It'd still be sexist, just no one'd be reading it.

Usually for a work to be outright sexist and get away with it... It actually has to be what I like to call a "Parody Cake" or a "Satire Cake".

To explain what a Parody Cake is just remember the saying: "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

Which is what they are. They are having their parody while at the same time embracing and using what they are parodying.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #176 on: March 27, 2013, 01:39:26 pm »

Usually for a work to be outright sexist and get away with it... It actually has to be what I like to call a "Parody Cake" or a "Satire Cake".
But then if it is satire of sexism it is not sexism. I'm talking about just plain old' prejudice in any work.

On my original point what I mean about the tropes is, say you have a veritably stout woman who is a wall of muscle and steel. Tropety trope trope.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She is going off to save the kidnapped vulnerable handsome blond prince.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's sexist!

Unless of course that was all subjective projection to begin with, in which case objectively it is not sexist.

Remember, you have to burn the trope.

DeKaFu

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #177 on: March 27, 2013, 01:44:02 pm »

Here's my opinion on female characters in video games and other media:

Female characters are, as a rule, boring as hell. It's because of stereotypes and bad writing, but it's self-perpetuating. Female players aren't going to care about female characters because they've been exposed to so many stories where their only character traits are "is female" and "boobs" that they've just started ignoring them entirely. There's no point grasping at the straws of actual characterization and motivation that these characters have, because it's frankly too much effort.
Exceptions exist, of course, but usually only in games with actual good writing, which will never be the norm or even the majority.

Look at the toy section of any department store. You'll have a girl's aisle and a boy's aisle. The girl's aisle has pink dolls, and some pink things that aren't dolls.
The boy's aisle has robots and cars and dinosaurs and snakes and planes and guns and robot dinosaurs and superheroes and legoes and dragons and lions and bugs and microscope kits and lightsabers and robot dragons and Pokémon and bugs and every colour on the planet that isn't pink.

Character roles are like that.

On one hand, you have the female roles: Damsels, staff chicks, booby action girls, moms.
On the other hand, you have the male roles: Everything else in the damn world.

Of course girls are going to be fine with playing male characters. Male characters get to be interesting. Why on earth would anyone want to be stuck in the pink aisle when they could have everything else?
Of course guys aren't interested in playing female characters. Why would anyone seek out the lame pink aisle when they already have so much other awesome stuff to choose from?

This isn't a carefully reasoned point of view. This was just my instinctive reaction to the state of things, ever since I was a kid. But that's as far as a lot of people are going to get.
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Glowcat

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #178 on: March 27, 2013, 01:47:34 pm »

Just about sums up all the wrong things about her videos.
And this is a response that sums up what's wrong with that video

Avicenna himself falls into a few traps. One important one is that Anita talks in that video about playing videos games in her youth so I have no idea where he gets the idea she started later in life, and the other biggie is when he says that the tropes were simply passed down and there wasn't a plan to oppress women. This is something that a lot of people seem to struggle with: sexism doesn't have to be some sinister plot by the oppressor class to keep women down.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:51:39 pm by Glowcat »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #179 on: March 27, 2013, 01:52:37 pm »

On one hand, you have the female roles: Damsels, staff chicks, booby action girls, moms.
On the other hand, you have the male roles: Everything else in the damn world.
Kids shows tend to be more focused on selling products than developing characters. There is nothing physically stopping girls from picking up anything in the not-pink isle and vice versa. Heyo MLP.

Of course girls are going to be fine with playing male characters. Male characters get to be interesting. Why on earth would anyone want to be stuck in the pink aisle when they could have everything else?
Do you know how many people prefer playing female characters for the variety alone?

Avicenna himself falls into a few traps. One important one is that Anita talks in that video about playing videos games in her youth so I have no idea where he gets the idea she started later in life, and the other biggie is when he says that the tropes were simply passed down and there wasn't an plan to oppress women. This is something that a lot of people seem to struggle with: sexism doesn't have to be some sinister plot by the oppressor class to keep women down.
Well, there wasn't a plan. It was a system enforced by gender roles that kept ancient society out-competing others. Sexism need only be prejudice, but the prejudice is being invented where there is none now.
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