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[Dutchling]

I'm not sure what's going on here anymore.

._.

[Max White]

Why are all the good ideas already taken?

Ok how about this: Future in space with magical powers and plasma swords. Surly that has never been done!

[LordBucket]

There are nations today where a woman earns the death penalty for being raped.

There are nations today where male genital mutilation at birth is considered socially acceptable and people look at you funny for thinking that it might not be such a good idea.

I'm pretty confident women have always had it worse than men.

This might be a case of the grass seeming greener elsewhere. Yes, there may be places in the world today where it's better to be male. I'm pretty sure the US today is a place where it's better to be a woman.

[penguinofhonor]

I found it.

[kahn1234]

Yes that is still only in local elections though, men were allowed to vote in national elections while women were not and that still shows discrimination against them

Rich men. landowners. the common man didnt equal vote to rich men until the later 1800's in general elections. Female votes int he general elections followed in 1918, as has been said previosuly.

the Common man at the time was just as deprived of political power as the common woman. Rich women were usually valued advisers to their rich, voting husbands so they did get a voice, in a way.

*Shakes head*  I don't see how your example says it any different.

Gender inequality is not a modern phenomenon that just came out of nowhere. 

Women can be respected and loved, yes.  That does not mean they have a say(or will be listened to) in public affairs.
Like having a dog, you can respect the dog for its loyalty and love it for its companionship, but, in the end you are the one who is going to decide what is ok and what is not ok for the dog to do.

Nowhere have i said that women were exactly equal to men. I said, at different times in history, they have not being as equal in some places (aka politics), but have been just as equal/important if not more equal/important in other parts of life.

During the ancient period, in many parts of life women were just as important if not more important than men in many parts of life. Yes they had less political power than rich men, but they were not oppressed. This continued during the dark/medieval/renaissance. They were still important/highly valued, although not equal in some parts, yes, but not oppressed.

Oppression of women is fairly recent. The radical religious oppression of women was rooted in belief in the last 100-120 years, and, prejudice against women did increase in certain areas during the Industrial revolution (although they were nowhere near as hard done by as feminists would like you to believe). To think ti was always that way is wrong. past societies were surprisingly equal (although not truly equal, although there are exceptions).

[Max White]

There are nations today where male genital mutilation at birth is considered socially acceptable and people look at you funny for thinking that it might not be such a good idea.

Yea, and it is a serious issue. One that people should be aware of.

[palsch]

I'm sorry, I do kinda have to respond to this. I'm going to put it in spoilers because it's entirely besides the point of the thread, but it's pissed me off;

Spoiler: Discussion of rape (click to show/hide)

As in, date rape, where the woman gets so smashed off her face drunk she can barely stand yet still has consensual sex (i dont care if you are drunk or not, unless the man specifically set out tor ape her or spiked her drink with drugs).

You may not care, but the law fucking cares.

Here is the British definition of rape, which I heard about six thousand times a a juror on a rape case a couple of months ago (I believe Canadian and American laws are similar in this regard);

A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;
B does not consent to the penetration; and,
A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

The exact quote from the book;

“If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal ‘no’ is committing date rape, then a woman who says ‘no’ with her verbal language but ‘yes’ with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says ‘no’ is committing date lying… We have forgotten that before we called this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.” From Warren Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power

This is flat out bullshit. Someone who does not consent to penetration does not consent to penetration. They may continue to be sexual or affectionate without extending that consent to sex. If someone says no to sex it doesn't matter if they keep kissing or even consent to other sexual acts; if you go into those areas where consent is obviously denied then you have raped them.

That quote is fucking disgusting and I would have joined the protests against him in an instant.

[kahn1234]

I'm sorry, I do kinda have to respond to this. I'm going to put it in spoilers because it's entirely besides the point of the thread, but it's pissed me off;

Spoiler: Discussion of rape (click to show/hide)

As in, date rape, where the woman gets so smashed off her face drunk she can barely stand yet still has consensual sex (i dont care if you are drunk or not, unless the man specifically set out tor ape her or spiked her drink with drugs).

You may not care, but the law fucking cares.

Here is the British definition of rape, which I heard about six thousand times a a juror on a rape case a couple of months ago (I believe Canadian and American laws are similar in this regard);

A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;
B does not consent to the penetration; and,
A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

The exact quote from the book;

“If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal ‘no’ is committing date rape, then a woman who says ‘no’ with her verbal language but ‘yes’ with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says ‘no’ is committing date lying… We have forgotten that before we called this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.” From Warren Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power

This is flat out bullshit. Someone who does not consent to penetration does not consent to penetration. They may continue to be sexual or affectionate without extending that consent to sex. If someone says no to sex it doesn't matter if they keep kissing or even consent to other sexual acts; if you go into those areas where consent is obviously denied then you have raped them.

That quote is fucking disgusting and I would have joined the protests against him in an instant.

That quote is rather disturbing. However, with date rape, especially if the woman was severely drunk, the testimonial of the woman has to be treated with a pinch of salt, surely, as she for various reasons might not remember what happened. how does she know she didnt consent? It is interesting to note that, in Britain, many rape cases are thrown out as they are found to be baseless

For the record, i'm not saying that rape in any form should be allowed. i abhor it as much as the next person.

[Max White]

Spoiler: Discussion of rape (click to show/hide)

but the law fucking cares.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seriously, that is their definition? According to this, if a woman were to force herself upon a man and engage in vaginal sex, it wouldn't be rape because the man wasn't penetrated. That is kind of wrong.

Yes, I know that men have a lower rate of being raped than women. Doesn't matter, the law should still cover this.

[LordBucket]

How many jobs have you applied for? Most advertise pay ranges rather than a fixed salary. It
turns out that women end up at the bottom of the range more often than men.

That may be true, but let's reverse roles for a moment here. For example, imagine being a guy and trying to convince your wife to work 40 hours a week so you can stay at home.

Women are encouraged to be less assertive and aggressive in general, and when
they do push they tend to be judged harshly for it.

Yes, and men are encouraged to be good workers and are judged harshly if they push to not.

Society perceives the role of a woman to be submissive. society perceives the role of a man to be a provider. Honestly ask yourself which do you think of the "better" position:

A) Being expected to be generally "submissive" and "feminine."

And if you decide you're not happy, you can move on and you get to decide what happens to your children and you'll probably be handed a house, and receive child support payments until they're 18.

B) Being expected to spend 40 hours every week for the next 40 years working for somebody whether or not you like it. If you have dreams or ambitions, something that you want to do with your life...those ambitions re less important than spending 50% of your waking hours working to support your family. People will judge you based on how good of a provider you are. If your wife has a friend whose husband makes more money, she may feel entitled to no longer "be submissive," complain, withhold sex, and generally manipulate you and make you feel bad for it.

And if your wife decides to move on, you'll be expected to give up your children and the house you've been paying for for the past decade or so, plus you'll be expected to pay money to the woman who left you for possibly decades.



Do you really have it so terrible?

[penguinofhonor]

A) Being expected to be generally "submissive" and "feminine."

And if you decide you're not happy, you can move on and you get to decide what happens to your children and you'll probably be handed a house, and receive child support payments until they're 18.

B) Being expected to spend 40 hours every week for the next 40 years working for somebody whether or not you like it. If you have dreams or ambitions, something that you want to do with your life...those ambitions re less important than spending 50% of your waking hours working to support your family. People will judge you based on how good of a provider you are. If your wife has a friend whose husband makes more money, she may feel entitled to no longer "be submissive," complain, withhold sex, and generally manipulate you and make you feel bad for it.

And if your wife decides to move on, you'll be expected to give up your children and the house you've been paying for for the past decade or so, plus you'll be expected to pay money to the woman who left you for possibly decades.

Oh, I know this! This is the tactic where you explain something in detail to make it sound worse than another thing.

[LordBucket]

Oh, I know this! This is the tactic where you explain something in detail to make it sound worse than another thing.

Oh, I know this! This is the tactic where you evade the question!

[penguinofhonor]

Okay, how about this: The amount of downsides you listed for each of those options has absolutely nothing to do with the actual amount of downsides each has.

[kahn1234]

How many jobs have you applied for? Most advertise pay ranges rather than a fixed salary. It
turns out that women end up at the bottom of the range more often than men.

I have applied for many (i was 18, just finished sixth form collage and an IT apprenticeship and needed a job. I applied for several dozen jobs and trawled all the largest job sites. that was 2 years ago.) and, whilst i cannot speak for the US, on all the job sites here in Britain they say a fixed salary, regardless of gender. The only reason, in Britain, a man will be paid more is if he has actively chased a pay rise or got promoted.

also note that the Fawcett society (where most of these figures come from) and other feminist groups have been foudn guilty of fiddling data and cherry picking facts and figures that support their position, neglecting all of the evidence to the contrary.

Okay, how about this: The amount of downsides you listed for each of those options has absolutely nothing to do with the actual amount of downsides each has.

list the downsides of being female.

[kahn1234]

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