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[Skyrunner]

*me continues reading the thread*

[palsch]

I don't think my reading of the game is that far from standard. But I don't want to get bogged down on one example (especially when the issue is about trends rather than any single game being problematic) and have the rest of the post ignored, so I've edited it out.


Showing a female character as female is not the issue. It's the fact that so often female characters are put in heavily sexualised situations and that that sexualisation has direct and cultural effects. As the rest of the post explored.

[Zangi]

@Male Gaze
MGS
In MGS games, players(Snake) can look at the female character....  Actually, blatantly stare during cutscenes with a press of a button.

Take it as you will.

* Zangi is not contributing much.

[Loud Whispers]

I don't think my reading of the game isthat far from standard.

This (link) is true.

But I don't want to get bogged down on one example (especially when the issue is about trends rather than any single game being problematic) and have the rest of the post ignored, so I've edited it out.
Showing a female character as female is not the issue. It's the fact that so often female characters are put in heavily sexualised situations and that that sexualisation has direct and cultural effects. As the rest of the post explored.

It's just nudity on its own is not sexist. Nor is sexualization innately sexist sexualization is objectification. Pretty sexist. I mean expressing sexuality, which is not sexist.

a night club moment where she sexes herself up to gain some bad attention, this scene then leads to a forced strip tease.

It's that which is. Degradation and dehumanization. Objectification.

[palsch]

It's just nudity on its own is not sexist. Nor is sexualization innately sexist.

OK, let's go back here;

So with that in mind, why is it that a 'sexy' female character is a male sexual fantasy, rather than a female self reflection fantasy? Why can't it be both? Are we scared to admit that women have sexuality?

This is the question I was trying to answer as fully as I could. The two lines you pulled out were part of an explanation that sexualisation in games is usually very male-gaze-y, designed from the perspective of a male watching the female rather than being based around female sexuality.

I wasn't trying to claim that sexualistion is inherently and universally sexist. I was trying to argue that it's overuse in games is a real and significant problem because it makes it harder for such characters to serve as escapist figures for women.

[Loud Whispers]

This is the question I was trying to answer as fully as I could. The two lines you pulled out were part of an explanation that sexualisation in games is usually very male-gaze-y, designed from the perspective of a male watching the female rather than being based around female sexuality.

I wasn't trying to claim that sexualistion is inherently and universally sexist. I was trying to argue that it's overuse in games is a real and significant problem because it makes it harder for such characters to serve as escapist figures for women.

I figured as much, mis-communication on my part.

[Putnam]

Well Max that test doesn't work either.

Even in the original Mario was Princess Peach not a "think to be collected". In fact very few games I can think of had you collect women (Spelunky an this other game)

Link to the past.  You gather 7 sages, all women, who have been turned into crystals. Zelda is the last on the list.
...
I HAD to mention it.

To be fair Zelda does spend pretty much the entire first 90% of the game being one of the coolest characters to come out of a Zelda game yet though. In fact the only reason she ever gets trapped in the first place is because the game needs to set up a "final battle one vs one" scenario.

as a man, though, wasn't she?

Officially I guess so. Personally I was never sure what gender Shiek was supposed to be, and many of the later appearances of Shiek (such as in Super Smash Brothers Melee and later SSBB) give her/him a much more feminine appearance. Also even though the official word is that she was passing herself off as a man, there hasn't been any word on whether or not she actually became one.

I know I'm late on this, but fractalman was talking about the SNES game, A Link to the Past, not OoT.

[Solifuge]

Though a lot of people are still raising interesting points here, I can't help but feel there are a few parties who are just shouting over it all, just for the sake of shouting. And trying to communicate with them, only to get a wall of misrepresentation, point-dodging, or such is exhausting.

Constant contradiction, for whatever reason, is not conducive to a conversation, nor to approaching truth. As you prepare to voice your feelings, take a step back. Even if just for a moment, think it possible that you may be mistaken.

[alexandertnt]

Im starting to hate theese sort of whiners.
If you want to be treated equal, act equal for christs sake.
Stop acting like a victim and act like a person.

Dont even get me started on the sexist assholes of both genders that go "men should be our castrate minions!" and "women are slaves and fuckdolls!"

Or members of various races going "black people are disgusting monkeys that should be seperated from our soceity!" or "white people are inherently evil nazis!"

Or various religions going "we are the only right ones! Ban science! Kill people who make fun of our religion! Opress homosexuals! Justify murder in accordance to our honor code!"

I hate the human race.

You are assuming that the "whiners" are equal in the first place (something which is under discussion). You are also indiscriminately assuming all arguments are just whining, without giving a rataionale as to why. If you were to act equal when you are not equal, that would seem totally ignorant and to not solve any issues.

You are arguing against arguing, and it accomplishes exactly nothing.

[Neonivek]

Ok I have to say... I am VERY impressed by anyone who actually read through ALL the posts. I mean there is what an hour of junk?

[Putnam]

If you sift through all the literal junk, you can get through pretty quickly

[Reelya]

3) Yes, Dead or Alive spinoffs are minimal games acting more as glorified porn, via skimpy clothes and a boob-physics simulator. And yet they are interactive media, and they represent women purely as sexual objects.

Point being they are not mainstream games. I wouldn't even warrant calling them a game. People don't praise them for the story or whatever.

Have to agree with LoudWhispers here, the mere existence of something that's offensive and "interactive media" doesn't cast mud on the rest of the games industry, any more than we blame Hollywood for the mere existence of film pornography. After all it's all film, right? By that same logic, we can dismiss the entire body of literature as serious business, due to the existence of smut stories. I'm sure examples exist in any medium which "represent women purely as sexual objects.". Should all those mediums (as a whole) be discredited too?

What this shows, is that just listing examples of offensive items, in now way indicates that an entire medium can be dismissed. Even if the offensive titles outnumber the non-offensive ones, it doesn't prove anything. The state of popular series does actually say something relevant: for example, How many pornos are produced in a year - They surely outnumber mainstream cinema releases, so that proves movies are all about smut, right? This just shows more data is needed before dismissing an entire genre / medium based on counting bad examples. For example, look at the number of sexist / offensive harem manga from Japan (a lot), but then look at the average run-length of those (mostly not that long) and those types almost never make the top selling lists.

[alexandertnt]

It has nothing to do with specifically "pornography" games or media, everyone accepts they are outliers.

It is how common and ubiquious some concepts are.
How many people actually even notice how ridiculous it is that females charge into battle with bearly any actual protection? It is quite a common sight in RPG's (especially MMO's, including some very popular ones).

By that same logic, we can dismiss the entire body of literature as serious business

What this shows, is that just listing examples of offensive items, in now way indicates that an entire medium can be dismissed

Except for the fact no one is dismissing entire mediums of entertainment...

[Loud Whispers]

Except for the fact no one is dismissing entire mediums of entertainment...

If it's an opinion, someone's had it ITT.

Um...Unless I'm mistaken, we're talking about mainstream gaming in Western countries + Japan and the sexism issues there. The vast majority of game publishers fall into that category and I'm pretty certain that the US dominates the industry.

I've never said that the entire gaming industry is sexist, just that rampant sexism in the industry was a problem. Even if only half the industry is sexist it would still be a problem, and I think it's much more than half.

[alexandertnt]

I dont see how those quotes are dismissing the entire medium of gaming at all. The first one seems to claim that most publishers are sexist (not all), and the next specifically states that they never said the entire industry is sexist.

(Maby I am missing your intended point?)