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[Frumple]

So with that in mind, why is it that a 'sexy' female character is a male sexual fantasy, rather than a female self reflection fantasy? Why can't it be both? Are we scared to admit that women have sexuality? Or am I missing the point. I mean lets be honest, I am a white heterosexual male aged 20 to 30 who is financially doing alright. If anybody is going to misunderstand how discrimination works and need a break down of the situation, I am willing to admit I am a prime candidate.

body image

fucked up

It's got a lot less to do with being afraid of female sexuality than it does with how much of a detriment modern body image often is to just that (there's just... vast tracts of text related to this, from what I understand. Reams of it.). Along with how unhealthy it usually is, how frakking unobtainable, how etc., so forth, so on, and continuing. That's a whole other can of violently wriggling worms and seriously something of a scope that could stand its own thread, because gods know it's garnered enough literature over the last few decades. Hell I'm relatively certain we've had threads on that subject, or at least have had it come up several times in varying threads.

It can theoretically be both, though. Just... usually isn't. It's a helluva' subject.

[alexandertnt]

I think the thing is that the exaggerated female characters are often created for males, and the exaggerated male character are often created for... males. So it would seem relevant to consider what the industries general purpose and intent for these character types.

So with that in mind, why is it that a 'sexy' female character is a male sexual fantasy, rather than a female self reflection fantasy? Why can't it be both? Are we scared to admit that women have sexuality?

Was the creator of the character a female (Not an impossibility, but unlikely)? Because having a male self-reflect on female sexual desires doesnt really work.

[Max White]

So with that in mind, why is it that a 'sexy' female character is a male sexual fantasy, rather than a female self reflection fantasy? Why can't it be both? Are we scared to admit that women have sexuality? Or am I missing the point. I mean lets be honest, I am a white heterosexual male aged 20 to 30 who is financially doing alright. If anybody is going to misunderstand how discrimination works and need a break down of the situation, I am willing to admit I am a prime candidate.

body image

fucked up

It's got a lot less to do with being afraid of female sexuality than it does with how much of a detriment modern body image often is to just that (there's just... vast tracts of text related to this, from what I understand. Reams of it.). Along with how unhealthy it usually is, how frakking unobtainable, how etc., so forth, so on, and continuing. That's a whole other can of violently wriggling worms and seriously something of a scope that could stand its own thread, because gods know it's garnered enough literature over the last few decades. Hell I'm relatively certain we've had threads on that subject, or at least have had it come up several times in varying threads.

It can theoretically be both, though. Just... usually isn't. It's a helluva' subject.

So take the following example

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

An impossible to achieve body image that some people idolize. Is this unhealthy?

Was the creator of the character a female (Not an impossibility, but unlikely)? Because having a male self-reflect on female sexual desires doesnt really work.

This is a dangerous line of reasoning. If something is sexist or not depends on its content, not the gender of the creator. If a female make a idealized rendering of a female it is fine, but the exact same image drawn by a man is sexist?
I'm cancelling my subscription to your newsletter.

[alexandertnt]

This is a dangerous line of reasoning. If something is sexist or not depends on its content, not the gender of the creator. If a female make a idealized rendering of a female it is fine, but the exact same image drawn by a man is sexist?
I'm cancelling my subscription to your newsletter.

Check what I quoted - "female self reflection fantasy" (implying the existance of a female creator), I was only commenting on from that. A male cannot self-reflect on female sexuality by definition, that is what I was pointing out.

Maby women have n-word rights, or maby the fact that it requires discrimination of the creators shows a weakness in the original argument that I quoted (this is what I was hinting at).

[Max White]

I think you don't get how self reflection fantasy works... You see there is a character that you like, and you imagine yourself as that character. That is pretty much it. In this way, if you have a female character, and a woman likes this character and imagines herself as that character, she is enjoying the magic of self reflection.
The fact that a guy is the creator of this character has nothing to do with it. Self reflection doesn't infer anything about the creator.

[alexandertnt]

I think you don't get how self reflection fantasy works... You see there is a character that you like, and you imagine yourself as that character. That is pretty much it. In this way, if you have a female character, and a woman likes this character and imagines herself as that character, she is enjoying the magic of self reflection.
The fact that a guy is the creator of this character has nothing to do with it. Self reflection doesn't infer anything about the creator.

Ah, I see now. Nevermind then.

[DJ]

Someone mentioned Duke Nukem earlier, and I just have to say that we really shouldn't be taking seriously things that obviously weren't meant to be taken seriously. Otherwise we'll wind up with TF2 being a game about killing people of different colour, and stereotyping Russians as stupid, French as conniving and Scots as drunkards. There's plenty of games where sexism appears in a more serious context, so let's stick with those for examples.

[DrPoo]

Im starting to hate theese sort of whiners.
If you want to be treated equal, act equal for christs sake.
Stop acting like a victim and act like a person.

Dont even get me started on the sexist assholes of both genders that go "men should be our castrate minions!" and "women are slaves and fuckdolls!"

Or members of various races going "black people are disgusting monkeys that should be seperated from our soceity!" or "white people are inherently evil nazis!"

Or various religions going "we are the only right ones! Ban science! Kill people who make fun of our religion! Opress homosexuals! Justify murder in accordance to our honor code!"

I hate the human race.

[GlyphGryph]

Im starting to hate theese sort of whiners.
If you want to be treated equal, act equal for christs sake.
Stop acting like a victim and act like a person.

This is... basically incredibly unhelpful. Are you trying to claim that the "solution" to adversity and discrimination is to just pretend its fake? To ignore it?

Because that seems... incredibly unlikely to help anyone, ever.

[palsch]

So with that in mind, why is it that a 'sexy' female character is a male sexual fantasy, rather than a female self reflection fantasy? Why can't it be both? Are we scared to admit that women have sexuality? Or am I missing the point. I mean lets be honest, I am a white heterosexual male aged 20 to 30 who is financially doing alright. If anybody is going to misunderstand how discrimination works and need a break down of the situation, I am willing to admit I am a prime candidate.

Lets start with some empirical data;

Sexualised female characters have measurable and negative effects on immediate attitudes towards women, and negative effects on female player's self image. While it's not extreme, there were measured reductions in women's self-efficacy after playing as a sexualised character. They also measured significant changes in attitudes among both men and women, with them having lower opinions of women's physical and mental capacities. The study was limited in scope and size, but it's worth noting that prior studies had found stronger effects (notably hits to self-esteem that weren't measured here) so I'm fairly confident saying this is reasonable low-end measure of the negative immediate effects of sexualised female video game characters.

Which is to say, playing games with sexualised characters can change how people think about women in a negative manner and to a real, measurable degree.

This doesn't mean that sexualised characters should never be used, but maybe it should be kept in mind before they become the default, or are argued to be empowering and positive experiences.


Next there is that sexualisation tends to be orthogonal to characterisation. That is, a female character who is otherwise not objectified will often be sexualised just for the cheesecake factor. [SNIP] This sort of application of the male gaze makes it clear that although we are looking at a strong female protagonist, we are still looking at her through the perspective of a lusty male. The quote from the page linked is a nice way to put it;

Men look at women. Women watch themselves being looked at. This determines not only most relations between men and women but also the relation of women to themselves.

While such sexualisation doesn't destroy any value a character might have it does make them less likely to be escapist fantasy for women. It makes it clear that they are there for male consumption. It also brings in all those problems with sexualised characters from above for what would otherwise be a non-sexualised positive gaming experience.

Can you have heavily sexualised and sexual women where their sexuality is a positive part of their character? Sure, although it's a lot harder in video games than it is in, say, books, for obvious reasons.


Finally there is the nature of female sexualisation as opposed to sexuality. A female character who is shown to have sexual urges is a very different thing from a female character designed or written to play on the players urges. How many games actually explore the desires and sexuality of the female characters? The big Bioware RPGs? For the vast majority of games, having a female who is sexually confident just means having her wear little to no clothing. Again, it's dropping back into the male gaze issue, where the characters are written as targets for male sexuality rather than as explorations of female sexuality.


Are there women who might find playing a sexually attractive character designed to be pleasurable to men an escapist fantasy? Sure. But is that really the main - effectively default for female characters - fantasy we want video games to offer women and girls entering the medium? Is it the primary example - to the near exclusion of all others - of female sexuality we want to represent? I'm really hoping these questions are rhetorical.

[Mech#4]

Hn, is there any indie development teams consisting mostly or entirely of female gamers? That would a good start on showing the gaming industry what being looked for.

[Dutchling]

This discussion seems somewhat interesting.

PTW

[palsch]

Hn, is there any indie development teams consisting mostly or entirely of female gamers? That would a good start on showing the gaming industry what being looked for.

A lot of links and discussion in the comments to this post. A couple years out of date and some links are dead, but there are also links to more active feminist geek/coder/gamer blogs and sites that will take you way down the rabbit hole. The blog itself is worth a look as well.

[Pnx]

There's definitely a few out there. Though game developers are something like 90% male (I'm fully expecting this to change over time as more little girls grow up wanting to make games).

There's also things like the husband and wife team behind Mount & Blade. Of course I always wondered what something like that would look like, especially if they're working on the same code. I mean does it look like this:

Code: [Select]

For(a<b; a++);   // Oh light of my life, you really must comment what these variables mean
// If you scroll up, oh dearest of mine, you'll see that I did just that ten lines up.
If(c>a*b)
{
  flag1=1    // Ah, so you did. Oh, and do the dishes, I know you're procrastinating them off while you read this.
}
Else    // But I want to make this spear be all pointy!
{
  flag1=0    // No but's, they're starting to smell.
}


[Loud Whispers]

Next there is that sexualisation tends to be orthogonal to characterisation. That is, a female character who is otherwise not objectified will often be sexualised just for the cheesecake factor. I'm thinking of games like Heavy Rain, where a well rounded and written female character has has random nude scenes for no real reason.

Cheesecake factor? That scene freaked me the fuck out. It's one of the only few scenes that do.
Madison is happy and all that going about her daily routine, lulling the player into a sense of security. Yet something is so freaking eerie.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When are we at our most vulnerable other than when we are naked, bare to the world?

And then the showers are off... And it's dead fucking silent. No ambiance. Nothing. For about five minutes pure silence but the sound of yourself.

Yet all the camera angles so far have been of someone intruding, not following the characters like usual.

And spoilers ahead

The violins are unleashed by the fridge and the realization that

You are in her worst nightmare. THE KILLER IS IN THE APARTMENT. Heavy rain is a psychological thriller.

It isn't cheap sexualization or objectification, everything has a purpose.

Seriously. If you don't believe me and still think there was some sort of special focus on Madison purely because she's a female character:
The game spends the first four minutes basking in Ethan's varying degrees of nudity.

I don't see how depicting female characters as female is supposed to be sexist.