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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 304143 times)

Baffler

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3480 on: August 30, 2014, 07:03:11 pm »

Though this policy is sexist, there is no reason to present it in the context of this thread.  It does not support either side of an argument over whether sexist use of tropes in video games is prevalent, or impacting the games industry or society.  It's also not relevant to any point that I've made.  Additionally, the sexism of the police pales in comparison to the racial, ethnic, and religious implications.

This wasn't in response to you, per se, though I wasn't very clear on that. It was more in response to the wider discussion on military service, but it was only tangentially related.

Sorry, that wasn't supposed to be directed at you specifically.  It's also not a claim.  It's a request/command, and thus cannot be proven true or false.

The command is in reference to the endless derision of people that advocate social justice/civil rights.  Sure there are plenty of people that say stupid things in the name of that cause, but the cause itself is a worthy one.

No harm done and, again, you're right.

The reasons for being murdered are very different.  Men are more often murdered because of rivalries and racism.  Women, when murdered by men, are being "put in their place", or are considered prey.

This isn't quite fair, considering the way that I originally presented the argument, but if you look at the statistics for trans women being murdered, you'll get a clearer picture of why it felt important to me to mention.  I don't actually feel that the difference murder rates between cis women and men favors men, or is equal.

In all cases in the US, black people are the ones most affected.  That's a very important thing to keep in mind for anyone making a claim about which groups are oppressed, and to what degree.

This is where I take issue. Never mind that a black man is also a man, but it's a bit presumptuous to take all of this data and dream up the motive for each of those crimes.
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3481 on: August 30, 2014, 07:30:47 pm »

That healthcare thing is false.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/
The UK, which is the main fair "national health" comparison for the USA came in higher for "timeliness of care", but way, way, lower on health care costs and tax dollar spent on health.

Then you have the other cited "proof" of the superior American system: Medical Tourism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States
75000 people go to the USA for medical care per year, but 750000 Americans go to other countries for medical care per year.

If you're refuting something, please state what you're refuting.  I can't find anyone claiming the US system is the best ever, but maybe I missed that post.

The US healthcare system is much better at some things, and much worse at other things.  As a system overall, that doesn't make it better or worse. Simply different.

If I lived under a nationalized healthcare system, I would have lost 2 family members in the past few years because they wouldn't have been treated in time.  Since we have health insurance - just basic health insurance, nothing too fancy - we were able to get life-threatening problems cleared up ASAP.   It cost, but the costs were manageable because health plans have an out-of-pocket maximum beyond which we paid nothing. 

Not sure why you brought up medical tourism - but since you did, yes, you can get complicated procedures done much better here.  Other places with lower cost of living do basic procedures more cheaply.  So?  Are we going to bring overall economic indicators and cost of living into the discussion now?

TL;DR Different systems are different.  It's a case of pick your poison. We don't live in an ideal world, and somewhere there has to be compromises.  I greatly prefer a system where I can choose instead of having to be shoehorned into a one-size-kinda-fits-most system.

your own post:

Quote from: Ghills
3) No. US healthcare isn't perfect. But in many ways it is much better than nationalized healthcare systems(much quicker, for one thing). Nationalized healthcare isn't perfect, and I don't think it's even the best solution (which is probably some kind of hybrid public/private solution, in an ideal world).

The bolded parts are provably false. It's not better in "many ways", it's especially not "much better". It's dead last in "efficiency" for example.

In every measurable way, the US system is quite a bit WORSE than a nationalized system that costs 2.5 times LESS per year (the UK's National Heath). Except for blow-hard defenders in opinion pieces in right-wing newspaper editorials. In that area, the US health system is miles ahead of the UK.

I specifically linked studies showing that the USA isn't quicker than leading Nationalized healthcare. It also fails on every other measure compare the the UK. The US system is entirely indefensible, especially since it costs 2.5 times the UK's system.

I brought up medical tourism in advance to save time because it's the normal continuation of the line you were spinning: "well if America's so bad why do so many people come here to get care? Because they get sick of waiting for care in the national Health countries". So I saved us both a post and response there by nuking the topic up front. UK is #1 for "effective care" by the way. And America was 7/11 for "safe care" so you're not even in the top 50% for safe treatment of patients. They just want you to believe everywhere else is a gulag so that you keep drinking the "America #1" koolaid.

And what the fuck man, this idea that you'd have lost two relatives because national health countries fail to deliver care for life threatening illnesses? I've hardly ever heard of a problem here, but I've heard of peoople in the USA dropping dead because they didn't have insurance. That just doesn't happen with national health. Everyone gets emergency care, rich or poor. Do you have actual evidence that people are routinely denied emergency care in other rich western countries because the government runs hospitals?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 07:53:40 pm by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3482 on: August 30, 2014, 09:49:08 pm »

The USA does provide excellent "upper tier" medical care if you are willing to pay for it.

Quote
I specifically linked studies showing that the USA isn't quicker than leading Nationalized healthcare.

Did we separate people with lots of money and people with very little money?

Though I THINK there are other countries with faster "Your rich and/or a celebrity? HOLY COW! we got to cure you fast!"

Quote
Anyhow, living in Canada, I can say that it is true that if you urgently need care you'll pretty much get it immediately, and there aren't "death panels" in the sense some Americans say. However, this sorta disguises some problems with our current system. For one thing, if you have a very painful/debilitating issue and it's not life threatening, there isn't a guarantee that you'll get treatment in any reasonable amount of time. So someone spends 6-8 hours in the waiting room in pain, maybe sees the doctor, and then either the problem has a simple solution that could have been done earlier or something is scheduled in the future.

Canada's major problem in my opinion with medical care is probably more that not only does Canada have a harder time keeping doctors... But also that Canada is starting to have this large "we like out medical system, we just don't want to pay for it" mentality...

But then again people are STUPID when it comes to Taxes... Seriously "I will lower taxes" shouldn't be met with cheers.

That and Canada is a bit of a hypochondriac.

---

Also no one is going to "fight for the right to be drafted" because the draft is a moral grey area. It is a "necessary evil" and something we as a society have pretty much gone on record of hating the draft but recognizing that in a serious war it is needed.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 09:55:04 pm by Neonivek »
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3483 on: August 30, 2014, 09:55:43 pm »

Quote
The USA does provide excellent "upper tier" medical care if you are willing able to pay for it.

For most people in the US, it's not a matter of how willing they are. Median income is roughly $30,000 a year. That's barely enough for medical care of any sort, let alone what Warren Buffet has access to.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3484 on: August 30, 2014, 09:56:55 pm »

Yeah, if you're really rich then the US system is great.  Otherwise it sucks.

e: the argument about healthcare tourism always makes me laugh, as if the incredibly expensive treatments would be covered under any reasonably priced US healthcare insurance package
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3485 on: August 30, 2014, 10:57:36 pm »

Back on topic, I think this is the best breakdown of Anita Sarkeesian's thesis, about the "empowered women" trope in TV, mainly referencing Sarah Connor, Buffy and Firefly.

http://generalchelseamayhem.tumblr.com/post/68866206472/anita-sarkeesians-ill-make-a-man-out-of-you-so

Excerpts (mainly quotes from Anita, with a little commentary from the blogger and myself). I've left a lot out, though, this only covers a small portion of the points.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 11:24:34 pm by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3486 on: August 30, 2014, 11:15:32 pm »

I think her Thesis can be best summed up at: "Anita doesn't know what she wants"

There are reasons why Reelya that all of her "how to fix a problem in a videogame" suggestions flat out miss the point or don't work.

"Being a Damsel in distress is bad" offered solution: "What if she wasn't a damsel in distress?"

The interesting aspect is Mulan though derided in this paper is often considered one of the better examples of how to write a female character... because she isn't beholden to typical female stereotypes but she isn't "beyond them"... She isn't a male character who just happens to be a woman so to speak.

Quote
lol...Anita's answer is to take "Buffy" but rather than have a action-packed finale, all the women sit down for a nice round-table discussion of the issue and vote on the correct  response to the Big Bad.

She clearly doesn't watch Buffy... because they actually did that multiple times. In fact one of the better aspects of the show is that the characters do get together and talk about how to solve the problems.

Unless she means that talking about their problems would solve the issue on its own... Which once again she didn't watch the show because that also happened. >_>

---

The ultimate problem with Anita's Thesis and the part I have a lot of contention with...

Is that she is quite unprogressive in her views of men and women. She sees strength, as in strength period, as a male trait... She sees "You against the world" as a male story. She sees diplomacy as a female trait.

It is why I fully believe she wouldn't prescribe to the views her own thesis talks about. She had to have evolved since then.

Since really a big part about trying to decipher gender and sex... is seeing that a lot of these traits are false, they are not engendered traits.

Yet all her essay does is reinforce it. Strong "IS" a male trait, unless it is through feminine channels.

I consider that sexist outright... Or at least it is regressive thinking. Don't get me wrong I understand the concept of "Male character who is female".

But as I said, I do not think she would prescribe to that Thesis today... There just is no way.

---

Also how far into part 2 is Anita into? did she finish it?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 11:18:27 pm by Neonivek »
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GreatJustice

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3487 on: August 30, 2014, 11:18:37 pm »

My opinion of Anita is a bit like my opinion of Alex Jones; she has a very specific audience that generates her a lot of money because of the issues she takes with games, and if she were ever "satisfied" with anything reasonable then she would be getting rid of her cunning source of "outrage click bait" both from her fans and from people that hate her arguing in the comments. If she made an article in which she wasn't complaining about something, she would lose her clicks and thus her source of easy cash, so far easier to make a contradictory mess of an article.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3488 on: August 30, 2014, 11:19:35 pm »

Yeah I think it's well-known that Anita's thesis is rather strange and self-contradictory.  It might be that she got tired of her course and phoned it in though, I don't think it's fair to act as if it represents her actual views now.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3489 on: August 30, 2014, 11:22:29 pm »

Has she ever gone on record saying that anything is her ideal? Like a character in a game/movie/show is flawless when it comes to portraying a woman?

Not an idea or a hypothesis... Like a real tangible thing you could go out and buy right now...

I kind of wonder what she thought of sex in the city though >_>
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3490 on: August 30, 2014, 11:34:49 pm »

Only retroactive as far as I can tell. Like she slammed Sarah Connor Chronicles in her thesis, then slammed the decision to cancel the show in a video. She never once said to her followers or in her thesis that "You know what, this show is pretty cool and you should support it". Maybe highlighting things you DO like would get more people tuning in, rather than publicly taking a 100% negative view of them, until the very point they're taken away ...

Her input is almost 100% negative and reactionary. at least in terms of anything remotely likely to make a profit. She argues in her thesis that creative decisions should be about helping people, not making a profit. How shows would get funded under this arrangement is another matter.

The only example I can think of her liking something, which wasn't just a complaint about a show being cancelled, is highlighting some shitty indie games on her videos, and saying how much more inclusive these are than the mainstream titles.

But the impact of THAT is about as good as telling action blockbuster movie fans "look, violence bad, yo, stop watching those AAA action flicks, when you could tune into PBS for this exciting documentary about Tibetan single mothers weaving rugs out of organically-fed yaks' wool".
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 11:42:45 pm by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3491 on: August 30, 2014, 11:43:39 pm »

Quote
is highlighting some shitty indie games on her videos

I'd like to know what these were. Since honestly her "solutions to problems" are usually total garbage, I'd like to see some more practical solutions and this will give me a bit of insight.

By the by her Damsel in distress game doesn't exist. It was just a hypothesis...

Oooh maybe it is Blackwell Prophecy or Nancy Drew.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 12:15:19 am by Neonivek »
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3492 on: August 31, 2014, 12:15:29 am »

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2013/05/damsel-in-distress-part-2-tropes-vs-women/
Quote
There are some games that try to explore loss, death and grief in more genuine or authentic ways that do not sensationalize or exploit victimized women. Dear Esther, The Passage and To The Moon are a few indie games that investigate these themes in creative, innovative and sometimes beautiful ways. These more contemplative style games are a hopeful sign but they’re still largely the exception to the rule. A sizable chunk of the industry is still unfortunately trapped in the established pattern of building game narratives on the backs of brutalized female bodies.

While these games don't "sensationalize or exploit victimized women", 2 out of 3 of  them also don't have much of what people normally call "game-play". The third one does have a plot, but it's heavily ripped from Total Recall from what I can see, but with more warm fuzzies.

So, she splits games into two main categories, these "contemplative style games" and everything else, which are built on the backs of brutalized female bodies. That's pretty much slamming all mainstream titles without giving any balance or a picture of how common those tropes actually are. It might be argued we're supposed to "just know" that she's not referring to all games or even most games here, but she never makes that point and people with no knowledge of gaming culture are just going to assume what she pinpoints as the worst-offenders are just the norm in gaming. Never assume your audience is already clued into details like that. Imagine you did a video about race like this: "there are a few 'good muslims' but a sizeable chunk are still insane raving jihadists". Oh, but viewers are expected to :"just know" you're not referring to the average muslim when you say this, only the worst offenders.

As for the games she cites:
Quote
Dear Esther is an experimental first-person art video game developed by The Chinese Room for Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X and Linux.[a] First released in June 2008 as a free Source engine mod, the game was entirely redeveloped between 2009 and 2011 for a commercial release in February 2012. The game does not follow traditional video game conventions, as it involves minimal interaction from the player and does not require choices to be made nor tasks to be completed. It instead places focus on its story, which is told through a fragmented, epistolary narrative as the player explores an unnamed island in the Hebrides.

It's barely a fucking game. It's more like a Visual Novel crossed with first person "wandering around" an empty island with the occasional audio log triggered. Seriously? We tried shitty multimedia CD games in the 90's and people stopped making them for a reason: Movies and books do that shit better. Even Visual Novels are more "games" than this.

Quote
In form, Passage most resembles a primitive side-scroller in which players control a male avatar that can move from left to right as time progresses. There are no instructions. The environment is a two-dimensional maze with treasure chests scattered throughout, some in relatively hard to reach places. Points are earned for collecting these chests. After a short time, the player will encounter a female character who will marry the protagonist if touched; this choice, however, will increase the difficulty of navigating the maze, as the female will begin to accompany the player and restrict certain avenues of movement.

In the beginning of the game the player is positioned near the left side of the screen, thereby limiting his ability to see backward (the environment to the left of the player), with a long and narrow expanse of environment available to the right. As the game progresses, the avatar's relative position on the screen gradually shifts to the right, with less visibility to the right and more visibility to the left. The speed of the player also slows as time progresses, and the representation of both the avatar and the wife visibly age.

The lack of any victory conditions coupled with the inevitability of death have led some to question whether Passage is in fact a game at all, or whether the word "game" is a sufficient label for it.
It sounds amazingly shit, from a gamer's perspective, but you can see it's right in line with a postmodern hipster non-gamers view of avante-garde "gaming": the kind of thing you *think* about playing, rather than actually play, because hell, only mundane people actually play games rather than writing theses about how socially inclusive and avante grade certain "games" are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Moon
This one is an actual RPG. Not an actual leveling-up RPG, more like a straight adventure game: "Innovative mix between adventure game elements and classic RPG aesthetics". Ok, so no actual RPG mechanics, just the "look" of an RPG with a completely linear story. At least this one has a narrative unlike the last two she mentioned.

None of them have any replay value, I wager. So, all the games she DOES highlight are complete crap that no actual gamer would hold up as examples. Exactly like I was saying about the "tibetan yak wool documentary" analogy - these are the shitty PBS docos of the gaming world.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 12:33:07 am by Reelya »
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3493 on: August 31, 2014, 12:38:34 am »

Quote
None of them have any replay value, I wager.

One is a fancy book on tape, a really good book on tape... but it isn't a game. In fact I think it fails at the basic concept, the "walking around" doesn't integrate with the story at all... or rather the entire game could have taken place on the world's longest rollercoaster ride and it would change nothing narratively nor would it be enriched. The story and the "gameplay" basically take place in completely unrelated dimensions.

The second is basically a "artsy game" that you get a lot of if you play a lot of flash games. It is the only one of the three I'd call garbage). It also, isn't a game, you interact with it but you don't "play" it so to speak. But that is because I played enough art games and unless they are called "The Void" I doubt it is any good.
-Honestly "The Void" is pretty much going to be the measure of how I judge all "artsy games". It managed to get its themes across in a manner that felt satisfying... better yet? it has ALL the themes this game does except done better.

To the Moon is a good game from what I hear, I own it but never played it.

--

But forget all that Reelya because I am afraid to say this but... it doesn't count.

She is praising the games for having a atypical narrative... Not for being particularly progressive when it comes to female characters.

Quote
So, all the games she DOES highlight are complete crap that no actual gamer would hold up as examples.

Assuming I am completely wrong and she isn't just talking about how she likes that these games have a different narrative structure (well more accurately gameplay structure... To the Moon actually is more typically a videogame... somewhat) then a typical game.

Yes she is continuing her patterns of solving problems with garbage solutions that miss the point.

But worse yet is that... none of these games to my knowledge are about a female character. I don't think Dear Esther is about Esther in disguise is it?

---

So I am going to count this as

No she has never EVER listed a real tangible ideal of her vision.

WELL MAYBE... it does count... and her ideal is that...

A perfect feminist game is one where there is no violence or victimization at all... Where the play has no tangible input, they are simply trying to see through to the end of the game.

That really violence and this idea that a character needs to have a tragic plot or even a drive is a male idea or one that can only be used against women... and that games should try to aspire to something else.

But that just assumes her Thesis is something she still believes in.

--

I'd say it is because none of these stories have victims except from just life.

Still not counting it... I want a game that at least involves a real female CHARACTER...

Sorry this is stressing me out significantly because... assuming those weren't misleading quotes and they WERE about what games hold up her ideal... There is just so much wrong... But then again it was in her Damsel in Distress video... but then again it goes back to her basically saying "The solution to the Damsel in Distress is just not to have a Damsel in Distress"

Or maybe she isn't saying it is a solution... it is just another way to write a narrative that should be more prominent.

I am trying not to default to "Anita is a moron"... Though it does tie back in with her Thesis pretty well. After all her problem with a lot of those shows were because they had "Masculine" women who often solves their problems on their own, even with friends and allies, and often used violence to do so. Buffy could never occur in these game's format.

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If it makes you feel any better Relya... all three are "popular" so it isn't like she really thought too much about it.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 01:40:24 am by Neonivek »
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Reelya

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #3494 on: August 31, 2014, 02:31:12 am »

Her other possible examples are the Dinosaur Planet / Star Fox one. But it's already been covered why, even if it had been made, Dinosaur Planet would have triggered other things that Anita hates, so her "sounds cool, right" line rings hollow:

(1) it was a dual-gender game, not a female only game and (2) She chose (video 3) to only cite the part of the EEDAR study that 4% of games feature ONLY a female character, leading those unfamiliar with the EEDAR study to conclude that 96% of games must not allow you to choose a female character. by omitting the fact that 50% of games are dual-gender she basically ignores their existence, which is a de facto statement that they have no mentionable merit - and this would have included Dinosaur Planet if it had been made. Dinosaur Planet's only value to her then was not as a game idea that would actually have been "cool" to her, but as a hypothetical bludgeon with which to attack something else.

In that 4% of games the defining thing is not that you CAN be a woman - you CAN be a woman in 50% of games, it's that you CAN'T be a man. And I think it makes more sense to focus on what you CAN be rather than what you CAN'T. You can be a woman in 50% of games, and you can be a man in 96% of games. That's 2:1, rather than 25:1, which is a huge difference.

Anyway, Dinosaur Planet would have been part of the demographic of gender-choice games she flat out ignores, not the 4% she cares about that don't let you play a guy at all, so she would have panned it.

The other "possible" stamp of approval she gives is where she says violence against women isn't bad if they're on equal-footing with the male characters, and the footage shows a fighting game. But fighting games are unique because the 1:1 battle system pretty much requires equality of overall fighting ability between characters, such a "they must be equal" policy just automatically fails for all non-PvP games, like single-player campaigns in shooters, where it's a given that they player will be much more powerful than most single enemies.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 02:39:42 am by Reelya »
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