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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 309307 times)

Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2295 on: August 06, 2013, 12:26:59 am »

Great game about a woman who is actually a person and not an action hero. Fuck your Anita land, I like character depth.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2296 on: August 06, 2013, 12:28:19 am »

Great game about a woman who is actually a person and not an action hero. Fuck your Anita land, I like character depth.

But does she steal some guy's clothes and take his gun and go on a killing spree? She clearly isn't a proper subversion without it!
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Vector

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2297 on: August 06, 2013, 12:29:21 am »

I guess the question is if "adopting fully-realized personhood" is seen as a masculine trait or not.

(no sarcasm)
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2298 on: August 06, 2013, 12:30:02 am »

But does she steal some guy's clothes and take his gun and go on a killing spree? She clearly isn't a proper subversion without it!
Well... I wouldn't want to spoil it and tell you about all the people she kills.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2299 on: August 06, 2013, 12:33:16 am »

I guess the question is if "adopting fully-realized personhood" is seen as a masculine trait or not.

(no sarcasm)

The problem I am mostly bringing up is that in Anita's subversions the only path she allows is for the female character to take on the male protagonist's role.

Which frankly isn't a problem in it of itself, but as the only path it is actually quite aggravating especially when you realize that these are not flawed characters.

The Damsel isn't flawed, she dress is not a straight jacket and her lack of athleticism not an imposition on her agency. These subversions treat them as problems. Hence why the "Damsel" in Anita Land can only stop being a damsel by stripping off her female person and taking up a male one instead.

They never become characters in their own right but need to change entirely to fit the subversion.

The thought of taking the attributes of a damsel and making them the tools of her agency is not used in Anita Land. Zelda for example wears Link's clothing in Anita Land and is basically just Link except she is Zelda. Yet never does simply having Zelda save the day ever cross her mind. She is more then the dress.

How does Princess Princess go? She is captured like the stereotypical princess, gets bored, knocks out the guard, dons his clothing, and basically just becomes the hero.

How does Subverted Princess Peach go? She dons Mario's clothing.

Anita Land doesn't recognize anything beyond stereotypical hero traits.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 12:37:00 am by Neonivek »
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Vector

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2300 on: August 06, 2013, 12:37:07 am »

The thing is that the dress is usually a symbol of her helplessness, but it doesn't have to be so.  The problem is this: how do you make a video game fun to play where the heroine isn't very athletic and wears a dress, but you don't need a genre shift to a non-athletic sort of game?
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2301 on: August 06, 2013, 12:41:09 am »

Anita Land doesn't recognize anything beyond stereotypical hero traits.
Well, larger cultural context you see. You know, that big scary shapeless thing I can use to justify my arguments?
Why is it fair to shaft the male but not the female? Reasons larger context. I'm not going to propose why this context happened, or what can be done about it (For example pointing out the discrepancies within the game development industry) I'm just going to use it to justify my will that females shouldn't be damsels.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2302 on: August 06, 2013, 12:42:42 am »

The thing is that the dress is usually a symbol of her helplessness, but it doesn't have to be so.  The problem is this: how do you make a video game fun to play where the heroine isn't very athletic and wears a dress, but you don't need a genre shift to a non-athletic sort of game?

Make it a "Beyond the odds" sort of set up. Give her tools and the wit required to step up.

So... She isn't the athletic type, but as a Princess wouldn't she have had tutors? Perhaps she uses stealth or other tactics. I am being vague mostly because there are just so many ways to do it.

I mean how many games involve an "unlikely hero" who steps up without becoming a completely different person?

Quote
Why is it fair to shaft the male but not the female?

it really isn't, it is just as frustrating to see a male character with a rich history go through the cookie cutter machine to fit some archtype.

Quote
I'm just going to use it to justify my will that females shouldn't be damsels

The thing is that you cannot go completely the other way or else things become hallow (Where only males can have varied roles because women have to fit this ultra PC super delicious wholesome heroic stereotype). I still believe it is over proliferation that is the problem and not its use at all.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 12:47:23 am by Neonivek »
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2303 on: August 06, 2013, 12:47:13 am »

The thing is that you cannot go completely the other way. I still believe it is over proliferation that is the problem and not its use at all.
Well yea, I agree. I have been saying this over, and over, and over, ad nauseum, but apparently that only works when you make a video series. The tropes aren't the problem! It is simply the fact that there is nothing else on the table!

I was being sarcastic last post, just to be clear.

Vector

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2304 on: August 06, 2013, 12:51:19 am »

Well, larger cultural context you see. You know, that big scary shapeless thing I can use to justify my arguments?

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.
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Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2305 on: August 06, 2013, 12:52:33 am »

Well, larger cultural context you see. You know, that big scary shapeless thing I can use to justify my arguments?

I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.

I think he is referring to how people whenever they want to say something is sexist they go "Well sexism exists, and that is related to sexism, thus it must be sexist".

It is a lazy argument which I think he is saying mostly.

But I am guessing, I don't speak for max.

Think of it in this context: "Cartoons shouldn't show women as mothers because they are just proliferating the idea that all women should be mothers because that idea still exists"
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 12:56:28 am by Neonivek »
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2306 on: August 06, 2013, 12:56:10 am »

Yea that is about it. People want to justify their problems with something? Invent something vague enough to fill any role without giving it any real attention. In this case people keep saying 'larger cultural context!' without giving it any extrapolation.

Flying Dice

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2307 on: August 06, 2013, 12:56:26 am »

The thing is that the dress is usually a symbol of her helplessness, but it doesn't have to be so.  The problem is this: how do you make a video game fun to play where the heroine isn't very athletic and wears a dress, but you don't need a genre shift to a non-athletic sort of game?

Dark Souls? I mean, tone it down so that it's still a case of the player succeeding being largely due to experience and luck, but that sort of model for gameplay seems like it would work for a character who isn't (to steal my own turn of phrase) Kickass McTakenames. If the player character is completely hopeless when it comes to athletic activity, put them into situations that they might plausibly survive, given sufficient things in their favor. So instead of Dark Soul's armored knight avoiding a demon that can crush him/her underfoot until obtaining a real sword, then killing it, you have (say) your heroine in a dress doing the same sort of thing, except with a scaled enemy, perhaps an armored and armed mercenary, etc.

Even better, build a game where you can choose to progress along a more militant route of development, with that dress-wearing heroine eventually becoming a full-on soldiering badass, or to stay as she is, probably for a different set of benefits. Make the combat-heavy and diplomacy-heavy development paths mutually exclusive, with each remaining an interesting way to play.

Another way to handle it would be to make the player's combat abilities entirely centered on casting magic and avoiding physical combat, so you've got the physicality of running, climbing, dodging, etc. without worrying about the incongruities of someone who has never been in a real fight suddenly being able to engage in swordplay. This isn't restricted to princess archetype subversions, either; I'd love to see a game like this, especially one where the magic was less "Fireball! Lightning bolt!" and more "Grease! Glitterdust!".

Granted, though, that doesn't do much for sports games. The point I was getting at was that it isn't necessarily about "How do we make it fun to play as an unathletic princess in a game focused on physicality", but rather "How do we make it fun to play as a character who can't get up in everything's face with three feet of steel". It's the same as in any game where the player is squishy: orient the gameplay on stealth, planning, creative problemsolving, and avoidance of open melee combat. It's still about physical combat at the heart, just taken from a different angle.
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Rolan7

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2308 on: August 06, 2013, 12:57:42 am »

I guess the question is if "adopting fully-realized personhood" is seen as a masculine trait or not.

(no sarcasm)

The problem I am mostly bringing up is that in Anita's subversions the only path she allows is for the female character to take on the male protagonist's role.

Which frankly isn't a problem in it of itself, but as the only path it is actually quite aggravating especially when you realize that these are not flawed characters.

The Damsel isn't flawed, she dress is not a straight jacket and her lack of athleticism not an imposition on her agency. These subversions treat them as problems. Hence why the "Damsel" in Anita Land can only stop being a damsel by stripping off her female person and taking up a male one instead.

They never become characters in their own right but need to change entirely to fit the subversion.

The thought of taking the attributes of a damsel and making them the tools of her agency is not used in Anita Land. Zelda for example wears Link's clothing in Anita Land and is basically just Link except she is Zelda. Yet never does simply having Zelda save the day ever cross her mind. She is more then the dress.

That's a well made point you have there.
I have some strong misanthropic tendencies which I'm coming to grips with, and which for a while I confused for feminism and egalitarianism.  Samus, Jade, Zelda, Iji, and Maya (Borderlands2) are distinctly feminine while still being powerful and heroic.  On some level I have trouble accepting that.  Part of me sees them as honorary men, overcoming their biological "weakness".  Yet I can tell that's wrong, in large part because of those games and their positive female role models.

So yeah, the solution isn't to give Marcus Fenix long hair and a boob window.  There should *be* games with shallow, badass heroines - and there are, though they tend to be nigh-pornographic - but what's even better (but more difficult to produce) is heroines with actual characterization.
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Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2309 on: August 06, 2013, 01:01:52 am »

Although lets be honest, a lot of actiony male heros are showing a lot of skin, and it isn't a problem. One of the biggest gimmicks from the Prince of Persia series was loosing more clothing as you go, and I know first hand there are girls who sexualize him. Still don't have a problem with that.

And that is because while some male heros exist to be sexy boy toys, not all do. No need to do away with them when you can play something else more suited to your tastes. The lack of realistic female action heros doesn't mean the hyper sexulised ones are bad, it just means we need more diversity.
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