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[Glowcat]

We always wind up in with "who has it worse" game because every single time any kind of discrimination against men is brought up it gets hijacked into women's issues. It's like feminists are actively blocking any sort of raising of awareness of discrimination against men.

Because this topic is about women's issues!

I'm just going to quote this to help control my welling desire to blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne. We're already back to insulting misrepresentations.

[Neonivek]

Because this topic is about women's issues

Well SPECIFICALLY this topic is about Anita's two videos and series and the issues surrounding it and that she brings up.

[Glowcat]

Right, so domestic violence (for both genders) is defined as a certain range of things, some of which you don't agree with as "real' abuse - and it's only the men who are taking advantage of that wishy-washy "abuse" standard? You have evidence for that?

And then you say because there's another category of crime completely, where women are victimized, so were supposed to say "those male domestic violence victims don't know how good they have it!".

Well there are other categories of crime where men are more victimized, so that makes female domestic violence not a real problem, too, I guess?

Am I'm misremembering the original issue being that women weren't punished as much as men for domestic crimes? I mean, that figure of conviction rates seems to have been awfully important to the context here. See, I'm pretty sure that was the original issue we were debatin', so I'm just a tad confused by how you went from "these crimes aren't actionable" to my dismissing verbal abuse entirely as something that needs to be looked into.

[Reelya]

i'm responding to what you typed - the issues you highlighted in your post. Am I supposed to troll through every citation to decide what's the important data that refutes what I wrote.

Sure, reporting rates are 2:3 male:female. But I already knew that. If you'd read my link you'd see that the number of male victims of reports is 40%

But the number of convictions of females is only about 6%, and both those statistics were for the same year, same country. Ok, let me read in detail all your links. But I already quoted the BCS data and English conviction data, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that being the conviction rate data.

were more likely to be a victim of domestic abuse. Some 7% of women and 5% of men were
estimated to have experienced domestic abuse in the last year, equivalent to an estimated 1.2
million female and 800,000 male victims. Similarly, the survey found that young women were
much more likely to be victims of sexual assault in the last year.

Thank you for providing data that backs up my case further ^^ that's the estimates on the crime. But convictions are skewed by gender 15:1. there's a difference between estimates of a crime's prevalence, and rates of conviction. Which you seem to have missed.

[Neonivek]

you can't blame a class of people for what individuals in that class did

There are soo many things I can say, but I promised I wouldn't. DANG IT!

[Vector]

Maybe if you bothered to start a men's thread, we'd stop relating things to women's issues in the thread that says "women" in the title.

Seriously, no. Nobody would take a men's issue's thread seriously, and it'd be trolled into getting locked within days.

Really?  People keep saying all this stuff about women's threads, and yet we've managed just fine.  The original Progressive Rage Thread worked quite well until I left and stopped moderating.

Hell, I'd be willing to help moderate if you needed it.  Or Novel could, if he'd go with it.  He's not only a good moderator, but also a dude, which I think is more appropriate.

Besides this thread has had genuinely good discussions on men and women's depictions in videogames.

I'm going to add that I think the Krogan are, frankly, as insulting to men as the Asari are to women.  I realize that characters like Grunt are sort of made for men.  Rather, they're supposed to be male-appeal characters.  But there's a whole bunch of stuff about this race of men, its inherent violence, how perhaps it's violent because it's lacking in women that make me feel kind of unsettled.  Bunch of macho cultural stuff.  Kind of like the Asari sexworker stuff.  They're both incredibly male-gazey, but they're both nasty depictions.

(Forgot to add--we do see a female Krogan in ME2!  She happens to be dead, on an operating table, and used for Mordin's character development.  There's those tropes again...)

Right, so domestic violence (for both genders) is defined as a certain range of things, some of which you don't agree with as "real' abuse - and it's only the men who are taking advantage of that wishy-washy "abuse" standard? You have evidence for that?

You made an argument about physical retribution to emotional abuse.  He responded with statistics showing that women are overwhelmingly the victims of physical violence, though abuse in general is about even.  Please calm down.  You've been persistently arguing against statements people aren't making for a while now.

Right, so domestic violence (for both genders) is defined as a certain range of things, some of which you don't agree with as "real' abuse - and it's only the men who are taking advantage of that wishy-washy "abuse" standard? You have evidence for that?

And then you say because there's another category of crime completely, where women are victimized, so were supposed to say "those male domestic violence victims don't know how good they have it!".

Well there are other categories of crime where men are more victimized, so that makes female domestic violence not a real problem, too, I guess?

I guess your going to say "yes but MEN did those sexual assaults". But that doesn't make sense, because you can't blame a class of people for what individuals in that class did - and especially not to say "well a woman over here got raped, so that makes it totally ok that this unrelated guy got bashed by his girlfriend!". That's a very poor argument.

Do you see all this?  Most of it is reading things into a simple statement about his potential argument, and then saying that his actual argument is poor.  Italics and underlining mine, possibly badly done--hope you get the gist, if the substance is poor.

It sounds like you're really struggling, and like people have treated you wrong, and I'm genuinely sorry to hear it.  But for the sake of having this not all blow up again, I think it's necessary to point out that you're fighting phantoms.

[Vector]

Actually, I'm going to double-post because I want to make something absolutely and abundantly clear.

All forms of domestic violence are horrible things.  I remember going in to my therapist when I was seeing her and remember mumbling something about how it didn't make sense--the idea that you could psychologically murder someone and it was okay, but killing their body was a big problem.

I never meant to say that emotional abuse was not a problem.  I'm not going to say it's better or worse than the physical, because apples and oranges and also oppression olympics.  That's not what's at hand.  I've never been beaten, so I don't think I should speak to that anyway.

When I say that emotional abuse is not a crime, I don't mean that it's not a crime against morality.  I mean only that it's not legislated.  I was asking specifically for evidence that women are allowed to cross this divide between the emotional and physical, because I was interested--because of that anecdote up there.  It surprised me to hear.  If it's the case, then that's very sad, because it points to ... I dunno, all kinds of problems with how women and men and the intact state of their various bits is perceived.

[Reelya]

he's actually just link dumped, and mis-represented what those links say. I don't have time to go through the several 100 pages of some of those reports to see what's relevant. I can't find any data on conviction rates after looking through the first 4 or 5 links though, which he claims is there.

Did you catch him accusing me of being a wife-beater, because I claimed that violence-against-women games weren't a representative sample? That's what I'm dealing with.

[Glowcat]

i'm responding to what you typed - the issues you highlighted in your post. Am I supposed to troll through every citation to decide what's the important data that refutes what I wrote.

Sure, reporting rates are 2:3 male:female. But I already knew that. If you'd read my link you'd see that the number of male victims of reports is 40%

But the number of convictions of females is only about 6%, and both those statistics were for the same year, same country. Ok, let me read in detail all your links. But I already quoted the BCS data and English conviction data, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that being the conviction rate data.

were more likely to be a victim of domestic abuse. Some 7% of women and 5% of men were
estimated to have experienced domestic abuse in the last year, equivalent to an estimated 1.2
million female and 800,000 male victims. Similarly, the survey found that young women were
much more likely to be victims of sexual assault in the last year.

Thank you for providing data that backs up my case further ^^ that's the estimates on the crime. But convictions are skewed by gender 15:1

* Glowcat facepalms

That's the point I'm addressing... specifically. And your article never mentions "reports", it mentions victims, which I'm assuming came from the earlier version of the British Crime Survey (of which I linked the 2010-2011 version).

That part where I pointed out 'domestic abuse' as defined by that doesn't == something to convict on? Try reading that. Try connecting that with data suggesting actually criminal offenses are much more likely to be perpetrated by a man. Try to understand why I'm rapidly wearing thin on patience after spending an hour going through information that I THOUGHT would be helpful just for you to yet again ignore what I said to craft, as Vector put it, "phantoms".

he's actually just link dumped, and mis-represented what those links say. I don't have time to go through the several 100 pages of some of those reports to see what's relevant. I can't find any data on conviction rates after looking through the first 4 or 5 links though, which he claims is there.

No, Reelya. I never contested the conviction rates for the UK. I mentioned that the reported domestic abuse showed more criminal actions being acted upon women. Thus your 40% Domestic Abuse number and conviction rate are completely meaningless comparisons.

Did you catch him accusing me of being a wife-beater, because I claimed that violence-against-women games weren't a representative sample? That's what I'm dealing with.

Yup, I'm done for now. I couldn't continue without finding myself slip into an ever increasing level of patronization or rage. Later dudes!

[Neonivek]

When I say that emotional abuse is not a crime, I don't mean that it's not a crime against morality.  I mean only that it's not legislated.

Yes it is. Emotional abuse is most certainly a crime. In fact it falls under several crimes.

The issue is that it is rather hard to prove as it tends not to leave lasting evidence unless someone goes out of their way to collect it.

[Reelya]

I cited 2 sources - 1 for victimization rates. and 1 for conviction rates. That's the full story.

you yourself are now agreeing the victimization rates are exactly what I said they were - 40% male. BCS is victimization data - the rate at which the crime occurs, it's not the conviction data, that's something else entirely.

I guess I have to link the conviction rate data another time? Ok I found the original source on that conviction data, which shows a 15:1 disparity in gender of those convicted. Since the victimization rate is 2:3 this shows that of crimes with a male victim, it's much more difficult for things to get to court in the first place, so the abuse in those cases needs to be much more egregious.

http://www.libdems.org.uk/news_detail.aspx?title=Domestic_violence_up_a_third_in_four_years_-_Huhne&pPK=1689459c-44f1-4df7-8a23-271eab8d049f

It's the discrepancy between the victimization rate - that's what the BCS shows, and the conviction rate, that is the proof of how difficult it is to secure a conviction when the victim is male.

* Your dispute here is so entirely lacking in substance (repeating the exact same data I already provided, and going Ha! Your wrong!) that i have to wonder whether your just disagreeing in order to be contrary? And I'm definitely not misrepresenting what you did - you dumped a bunch of links, some of them 100's of pages long, cited the same figure I already provided - a 2:3 ratio and "40%" are the same thing - misrepresented what your data said (victimization data and conviction data being entirely separate) and claimed to have "defeated' my point about the conviction data. Since you didn't provide any conviction data I don't see how that's possible?

[Vector]

Yes it is. Emotional abuse is most certainly a crime. In fact it falls under several crimes.

The issue is that it is rather hard to prove as it tends not to leave lasting evidence unless someone goes out of their way to collect it.

All right.  Maybe in your country--in the US, it's not a crime.  At least not in California, pretty sure that's fairly universal.  I looked it up.

Did you catch him accusing me of being a wife-beater, because I claimed that violence-against-women games weren't a representative sample? That's what I'm dealing with.

Uh... no, I didn't catch that.  Because if I'd caught that, I am pretty sure I would have done something about it.

I think everyone here needs to calm down a bit.

[Max White]

I was under the impression that Neonivek was in the US.
Specifically working as a postman in Boston.

[Vector]

What?  I kept on thinking he said he lived in Belgium or something.

[Neonivek]

All right.  Maybe in your country--in the US, it's not a crime.  At least not in California, pretty sure that's fairly universal.  I looked it up

Did you look it up as emotional abuse?