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[Max White]

Once again, their are both issues about mens and womens rights that are problems.
The very idea of the 'Why men have it better than women' list is as useless and offensive as a 'Why woman have it better than men' list. Pulling out the measuring stick and trying to see who has it worse is in no way helpful. It doesn't serve to bring equity, all it does is alienate people into their bigoted little social niche until X hates Y for Z, where X is anybody, Y is anybody else, and Z is anything.

[Vector]

I think the systematic erasure of women from history is kind of one of those things you can't call "equal oppression" on, Max.

[Max White]

Oh I'm not trying to say that things have been equal.

You know what? I have actually been over all of this, and in the end I just gave up on the issue...

I give up.
I keep trying to promote the idea that human rights doesn't come down to who has the saddest story, and still we get things like 'Guys have it so bad! How hard could it be to be a woman!'
You know what? It doesn't even matter. If there was a great annual parade where all men were forced to walk through the streets naked with signs around their neck saying 'I'm worthless' then that would clearly be an issue worthy of the rage of a million white hot suns, but it wouldn't make womens rights any less of an issue.
This isn't a dick measuring contest, this is peoples lives.

[Descan]

Why is it so hard for people to wrap their heads around, "We all want to live our lives, not have others dictate our lives (whether from male insurance rates being higher, or from "but... you can't be a gamer, you have lady parts!", to the fairly unisex genital mutilation issue, (as in, it affects both genders directly. I'm not getting into a pissing contest over statistics or quality-of-life arguments) especially not based on things out of our control"?

As a man, I don't want to have people think I'm an overly aggressive, beer-swilling, car-fucking emotional lackwit. As a white man, I don't want people thinking that I've got it made in life, that I have things handed to me on a silver platter, or that I think all black people are little better than servants.

As a gay man, I don't like it when people assume my wrists are connected by rubber bands to my fore-arms, or that I'm going to be a fashion designer, or that I speak with a lisp that could curdle milk.

That's all stereotypes that I don't want to have to deal with. And all told, it's a fairly good lot, fulfiling (most) of those stereotypes doesn't make people hate you, or think you're less than they are, except for the gay stuff. But they aren't -who I am-. And THAT'S where the issue with prejudice and such come from. Taking peoples labels, and treating them a certain way, instead of based off who they are as a person and what they want as a person.

That's leaving alone quality of life (gay bashing?) or systemic prejudices (women making less than men, everything else equal.) And YES, that is a matter of sexism. Saying "Women go after raises less than men" IS IN ITSELF a form of sexism. Here's a tip: If you say something that, either implicitly or explicitly, says "All people of a certain gender/race/orientation do [this]", you're being prejudiced. People are people, they are not their labels. Perhaps women DO, on average, go after raises less. That doesn't answer why they do it less (social cause or in-built?), or the fact that the women who do go after raises are shut down more often than men.

I don't know how I want to conclude this, and I didn't touch on nearly everything I would want to say if I were righting an essay, but as I've said throughout: People are people. Treat them as people, not as labels or numbers.

Edit: What Max Anglo-Saxon* said should be stuck in here somewhere. Because yes. And if anything I said seems like it could contradict that principle, then take the contradicting sentence with a grain of salt. Maxxy supercedes that.

Spoiler: * (click to show/hide)

Shut up, I'm tired, I thought it was funny.

[Vector]

No, you're right on that.

Actually, let me put it this way: I think there are two separate conversations on gender troubles that need to be had (not counting queer issues, etc.--just the cis stuff).  There's the conversation where we should be talking about men and women, where it's talking about things like societal expectations, stuff like that.  I think that's an important conversation to have with both men and women's issues involved.

But I do think we should have focused conversations that are just about women, or just about PoC, or just about trans issues, and so on, because there is a dimension to this that is beyond the pale and a problem so large that it really needs to be focused on exclusively without derailment.  We need to focus on that particular problem, rather than bringing it constantly down to the level of issues that men and women share.

(Similarly, I think that when talking about circumcision in the United States, we should not bring up the societal expectation for women to have pierced ears--this is done, often, to babies, and yes, they have metal blown through their earlobes without their permission, etc., but it simply isn't the same level of discourse and we shouldn't shift off of the magnitude of problem, no matter how related the subject matter might be; and similarly, when talking about the worse sorts of female genital cutting, we should probably not talk about US-styled circumcision [though obviously some of the similar things men go through, usually internationally, should be considered])

[Putnam]

Thank you.

[Max White]

Wait... Some people get their babies ears pierced?
The fuck? Must be a US of A thing.

[Vector]

I'm told it's mostly a Mexico and India thing, but I suspect that there are large numbers of white USA-ites who do that.

Thank you.

I'm not sure what for, or if you're even replying to me, but you're welcome.

[Putnam]

For the statement about focusing on an individual issue.

[Max White]

I'm told it's mostly a Mexico and India thing, but I suspect that there are large numbers of white USA-ites who do that.

Welp... Whhhhhyyyyy?
I mean I don't agree with the circumcision but at least I understand that it is done for religious reasons. What type of drugs does one have to take to be thinking 'Hmm, little Betty sure would look purdy with a pair o' hoops!'

[Vector]

Uh. . . it's seen as a sign of femininity?  I mean, it makes about as much sense to me as "You, little kid, must wear pink!"

[Max White]

Parents are weird...

[penguinofhonor]

Ask anyone who's ever worked at a Claire's. I just asked my roommate, and she said that maybe a little less than 10% of their piercings are babies. It was much more popular in the 90s and has declined since then, but it's still not that rare.

Most people do it because they don't want their daughter to go through the painful procedure when she's older. Of course, this assumes she'll want it then.

[i2amroy]

For the statement about focusing on an individual issue.

The question now, of course, becomes "Which of those two do we want to focus this thread on?" We have moved fairly far from the OP after all.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I knew a male kid with a pierced ear when I was in Kindergarten. I remember because I hated that manipulative fucker as he got me in trouble sometimes.