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[Toaster]

Griff:  None taken.  But Web did say it was okay, pointing out said modkill applies to his words.  Ergo anything from him won't be direct quote.

WUBA: I should have asked this earlier, but in regards to wincons: Are they original AND brother-lover, or Original OR brother-lover?

I took it to mean OR (either that, or that, or both), but good call.

Web says it'd be or instead of and.

Huh.

That means there's no reason not to claim your true wincon in here. If you're mafia, that means both of us would win with town OR mafia. You could nark out your team, or I could just help you kill town.


I'm still town, though.

Yeah, that's what I was telling in the beginning.
I REALLY wish one of us was scum, and the other town, though... ah, whatever.

Lemme read on that, but seems like a good idea.

(Good idea was me telling him to poison Sheep)

Okay then- how many people do you think are mafia?  Because I think three.   Do you think said mafia used their nightkill last night?

I think we're looking to find at least two more scum, personally I'm betting one mafia one third party.  But I'm not the one making arguments based solely on there being only one left. 
I think it would make perfect sense for them not to have used it; my reads don't require them to have or have not though.

So who is it, then?  You betray your doubt on a Toaster/TolyK cult since you just said ONE third party.

If TolyK told me he was town when he wasn't, given each of us wins when the other does, he is playing to lose.

What? He's playing for a drawn out win, with a shorter, less satisfying win as a consolation prize if he gets lynched.  There is also the possibility that you're BOTH doing this, which I consider equally likely.

Why draw things out when you can just clinch it?  There's no scoreboard here.

What cohort?

The person whose bandwagon you so blithely joined: NQT.  Sorry for using the wrong term; but I don't know what the correct term for it would be.

Ah.  I don't see how you claim I'm using his reasoning, since his logic heavily involves his theories on who failed to kill whom.

[Griffionday]

Toaster:

-lover's chat-

Your posts seem genuine...

Last quotes I think I want: can you paste what TolyK was referencing in the last quote? also can I see where you first both discuss the two wincons?  Thanks.

So who is it, then?  You betray your doubt on a Toaster/TolyK cult since you just said ONE third party.

Really? That's the thing that betrayed my doubt in the two of you being a cult?  Not, for instance, my attacking you over being 100% certain on your reads?

In other words: No, I'm not 100% certain; but you win today if you're cult, while a one man team wont.

Ah.  I don't see how you claim I'm using his reasoning, since his logic heavily involves his theories on who failed to kill whom.

*goes to double-check your reads* Wow... I really was being an idiot here aren't I... I see why you were so confused over why I was attacking your reads as being bandwagonning; in my defense it's been the longest and most hectic two weeks of my life.  Your actual reads seem fine to my sleep addled brain.

I'm going to go get some sleep and try to find the time to re-read tomorrow before the lynch; my vote will remain on TolyK overnight for one simple reason:

If you and Tolyk are a cult, we're already at MYLO; it would have been LYLO but Tiruin claims to have two lives.  All you have to do is get someone lynched, let NQT die, and land a NK.  Bam: four players left, and a two man-cult team; cult wins.  If Ranger is sole surviving scum, he can't win tomorrow even if we kill the two of you and he FINALLY lands a NK that isn't blocked; same number of players, but a one-man scum team. 

In other words, if you are lying (something I'm OBVIOUSLY in no state to judge right now) we lose tonight, if Ranger or some other individual is lying we still have tomorrow.

Web:
If a revive type ability (such as Tiruin claimed) is poisoned, and is let to die or lynched do they remain poisoned?

[notquitethere]

Griff

2. But it was beautifully pro-town. Are you seriously quibbling about my word choices?
3. I wasn't contradicting myself, I was lying-- there's a difference. I didn't want Toaster and TolyK bumping me off if they were scum by giving away that I thought they were scummy. Now I don't think they're the most likely scum.
4. Surely this a nulltell? It's just a fact that you would regret lynching me just as I regret lynching Ford.

2.  Yes actually; your word choices indicate the way you're thinking and the word choice used seemed to indicate that you were thinking less.  "This will help us catch scum" and more "This is brilliant of me I tell you! BRILLIANT!".  In other words you were focusing on self over team, which indicates scum.
3.  Sorry, that's obviously NOT the reason you were lying.  If you have the protect you are currently claiming you wouldn't have cared at that point as you were safe for the night from either of their attacks.
4.  Nope; you're essentially trying to change people's opinions on you based on an emotion rather than showing that you're town by playing as a town.

2. Well I was thinking of myself. I don't know the alignment for sure of any other person in this game, and if I win then town wins. Scum have to think about team scum.
3. I was concerned about them bumping me off after the first night. I didn't want them trying again in case they'd tried and failed the first night. The lie was insurance. Now the lovers are outed there's no reason not to assist town more by telling the whole truth.
4. Sure, maybe that wasn't the most sound way of playing and my game has improved a bit since then. Hell, I've never won a game of mafia and so this is the best I've ever done so far.

I've read your table: I consider it to mostly be WIFOM, as you're assuming there is only one person left to lynch.  I've been over why I think that that is rubbish.  Your read EXCLUSIVLY rests on the assumption that night-kills will always be used, which is valid if it is one of several balanced reasons, but not something I would rely on on it's own right because it's terribly easy to fake us out; especially when we prove we're easy to confuse by no NK's occurring. 

You claim your town-flip would do wonders for his credibility.  Why?  Yeah he'd have called it out, but that would just draw suspicion to himself as he linked himself to you.  Surly that would be a null tell?

Most likely: No lynch scum roles such as doomspeaker, arsonist, poisoner, or cult.  Also possibly that mafia is just creating WIFOM knowing that we'll kill ourselves over it.

Aw c'mon, the table was mostly purely factual accounting of the different claims people had made. That's not WIFOM, that's good practice. I am assuming that there's only one person left to lynch-- that's the simplest conjecture at this point. Sure there could be stranger scum roles or some such. I still think looking at the records and using our powers to good effect are the best way to win this thing. As for Ranger, it's more that doing a town inspect on me could be a conceivable scum gambit, that's all.

Tiruin

Why did you redirect me to Griffy when I targeted Griffy? >_>

What's your take on Griffionday?

You claimed to have earlier targeted Griff. This was a good way of seeing whether you were using a scum kill, and it appears that you weren't. Griff's telling the truth about the medium thing, but he is targeting TolyK so I hope he's damned sure that Toaster or Toly are scum because that's two people he'd be killing when there's a much better case on Ranger.

Ranger, I wanted to believe you at first, sure. And I could see your actions as potentially town actions. But the evidence is pretty suggestive. But look, if you're really town, I'd hate to lynch you if you are. Look at the table of claims and put forward a more compelling case. In the mean time, I'd suggest you don't lynch Tiruin as it's quite unlikely she's scum given my action last night.

O_o

Ok...this speaks to me as you being...two faced, for lack of a definition. You suspect Ranger is scum, then suggest him to not lynch me.

...What are you thinking there?

Regardless of whether Ranger is scum or not, I don't want him lynching people that are more clearly town. That's not that odd is it? If Ranger does turn out to be town then hopefully he'll listen to me and not lynch you.

RC

Tiruin: NQT is the only one who hasn't posted their full claim in a single post yet... (i don't count the spreadsheet)

NQT: Why haven't you made a full claim yet?

I claimed before everyone else claimed and now with the additional info my claim is full. You know my three powers and what I did each night, what more do you want to know?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin: NQT is the only one who hasn't posted their full claim in a single post yet... (i don't count the spreadsheet)

NQT: Why haven't you made a full claim yet?

I claimed before everyone else claimed and now with the additional info my claim is full. You know my three powers and what I did each night, what more do you want to know?

A summary would be nice...


Also,

Why did you redirect me to Griffy when I targeted Griffy? >_>

What's your take on Griffionday?

You claimed to have earlier targeted Griff. This was a good way of seeing whether you were using a scum kill, and it appears that you weren't. Griff's telling the truth about the medium thing, but he is targeting TolyK so I hope he's damned sure that Toaster or Toly are scum because that's two people he'd be killing when there's a much better case on Ranger.

Nobody's answering on the deviation in knowledge between TolyK saying 'IF MY BRO DIES, I DIE TOO.' wherein his wording states an 'at the same time' gist.

Whereas earlier, NQT said that its a by-phase thing. If one brother dies in the night, the other dies in the day.

This has not been clarified by either of you three :/

Say, what if Ranger pops out town NQT? What would you be thinking then?

[notquitethere]

For everyone's convenience:

Powers:
1. Lovers one shot, if one lover dies, t'other dies in the next phase. I'm skeptical about the brothers wincon but it's possible.
2. Auto: I can't be killed by kill powers by someone I've targeted or someone who has targeted me for a full cycle afterwards.
3. Night time redirect ability.

D1, lover Toaster and TolyK
N1 redirect Zrk2 to Vector
N2 redirect Griff to Tiruin
N3 redirect Tiruin to Griff

If Ranger comes up as town then I'll be able to take his claims as true and use them to help find the remaining scum. With each person that dies the realm of possibility narrows further. I should hope that Ranger will continue to hunt through Griff if he is town, same goes for TolyK and Toaster should they be killed and innocent.

[Toaster]

Griff:  For the TolyK reference, let me quote everything from that line, then.  A couple will be reposts so you can see timing.  Starting from right after Web clarified.

Spoiler: Loverchat quotes, spoilered for length (click to show/hide)

Huh.

That means there's no reason not to claim your true wincon in here. If you're mafia, that means both of us would win with town OR mafia. You could nark out your team, or I could just help you kill town.


I'm still town, though.

Sheep's totally scum. Assuming you're still town (re last post), please poison him.

But yeah, I read over Zrk2's interactions to see who stood out, and Sheep looked totally scummy. Among other things, once when Zrk2 was getting a bit high in the vote count, Sheep backed off of him without much reasons.

Yeah, that's what I was telling in the beginning.
I REALLY wish one of us was scum, and the other town, though... ah, whatever.

Lemme read on that, but seems like a good idea.

P.S. I hope scum thinks I'm a third party dude XD

Oh wow, hammer on ZU? Yeah, I agree with you...
Sure as hell hope they don't kill either of us tonight, or we get protected... ;(

On the plus side, NQT can't die of ANY poison, if I EXTEND his life. Right, Wuba?

Sent in to poison Sheep. What can you do/what are you gonna do at night?

I have a one shot night action that lets me see any action done on me. I was going to do something silly like insist everyone target me to see what I get for a mass verification, but with the modkills that's probably not going to happen.


I'll probably fire that instead of action copping anyone.

We then go on to fullclaim to each other.

For the first wincon discussion, this is the first thirteen posts in loverchat.

Spoiler: More Loverchat, also spoilered for length. (click to show/hide)

I put on my robe and wizard hat.



So does this change wincons?

Oh great.
Well, hm.

I'd also like to learn what the wincons are now, Wuba

Oh, and we're not saying anything about this, right?
I find this logically funny, though...

No. If you're town, then the scum can get a toofer kill on us.

Are you town? I am.

Same here.
Hm.

Assuming we need to survive...
Do you have any protections or whatnot?

None of my abilities are survival-related.

I can help us survive poisons, but nothing else.

Also I can't help but notice that there are 4 unique viewers. Yeah.

Web posts that the wincons are the original wincons with the added brother to each other wincon.[1]  He also points out that more unique views come from when people look at the chat from multiple places.  (I have two different computers I check from, so I know I'm at least one of those extra views)

Wait, so we win if the other one wins? That's... good to hear.

I know, Wuba, I'm mostly joking, though that was bad phrasing on my part.

I'm still definitely town. Are you?

Yep. So... if we both win only if town wins AND the other wins, if we're both town, it's unchanged.

Interesting.

Basically, though, this means that we can safely disclose info to each other, as it's in our best interests either way to coordinate and keep each other alive.

Do you agree?

Assuming you're not scum or some bunkass third party, then yes.

I'm going to go get a read on you.

[1]  This is where my confusion came from.  He said it was added, but didn't specify if we needed to meet just one or both of them.  From the next post, it looks like TolyK got it though I didn't.

So who is it, then?  You betray your doubt on a Toaster/TolyK cult since you just said ONE third party.

Really? That's the thing that betrayed my doubt in the two of you being a cult?  Not, for instance, my attacking you over being 100% certain on your reads?

In other words: No, I'm not 100% certain; but you win today if you're cult, while a one man team wont.

Yes.  Little things matter.  The 100% line of attack I don't see as relevant, since your accusation of me pushing a case with surety beyond what I should have is hardly something that only applies to cultists.

You didn't answer my question on who you suspect to be whom, but perhaps you should get some sleep first.


Tiruin:

Whereas earlier, NQT said that its a by-phase thing. If one brother dies in the night, the other dies in the day.

This is how I understand it.  Looking back, I don't see that explicitly stated by Web for this game anywhere, but any lover relationship I've seen here in Bay12 before worked like that.


Web:  If a pair of players is lovers, when does one die if the second dies?

[Tiruin]

Whereas earlier, NQT said that its a by-phase thing. If one brother dies in the night, the other dies in the day.

This is how I understand it.  Looking back, I don't see that explicitly stated by Web for this game anywhere, but any lover relationship I've seen here in Bay12 before worked like that.

...

So what are you? Lovers or Brothers? Because the latter knowledge was stated, and what I'm thinking upon here.

((Huh, unique views? I always thought of that as being seen by PEOPLE WHO HAD A QUICKTOPIC ACCOUNT, per unique view. But that makes sense...))

...And you mentioned Brothers right there too.

I'm confused :/

[Toaster]

Tiruin: Both.

The added wincon is us being brothers to each other AKA one wins if the other wins.  The Lover refers to our chat and suicidal grief tendencies.

[TolyK]

TolyK, query.

Why did you state that if Toaster dies, you die at the same time?

NQT claimed that if one dies, the other will die in the next phase.

I didn't say at the same time, did I? If I did, I was mistaken.

Since then I've completely trusted in his townhood.  All bits about one town/one scum were thrown out as hypotheticals.

I don't trust you at all, you're playing this game FAR too black and white to ever be a safe town read for me.  Your case is based on so many assumptions that you've no reason to be as confident in it as you are.  You seem 100% confident there are three members to the mafia, and that no other balance makes any sense.  You are completely confident that the mafia will always use their night-kill; when it's obvious not using their night-kill once or twice would give them a VERY good alibi (which I saw as obvious after night two.)  You are completely sure that TolyK will play the game logically and tell you that he is scum, DESPITE BEING ABLE TO COME UP WITH OTHER HYPOTHETICALS.

Considering I'm the one that initially came up with the idea... yes, I'm playing it logically, however I am not scum. You have quotes from the chat, they're 100% genuine.

And the most damning thing to my eyes is that, even after completely missing your read against Sheep, you hardly pause before being willing to vote Ranger with the same lack of reflection.  Your read is NOT BASED on your own work, rather a chart your cohort threw together.

No, afair he said he would get a read on me, before he found out the change in wincons.

Toaster:

I am pretty sure I can't quote lover chat directly, but let me make sure- some mods object (but I do note apparent direct quotes of dead chat by you with no objection to Web.  Let me make sure.

Buying time to come up with plausible quotes are you?

Not cool, man.

If TolyK told me he was town when he wasn't, given each of us wins when the other does, he is playing to lose.

What? He's playing for a drawn out win, with a shorter, less satisfying win as a consolation prize if he gets lynched.  There is also the possibility that you're BOTH doing this, which I consider equally likely.

Heh. I'm lazy. I doubt I would do that, I'd likely NK myself to just for the fun of it.

Toaster:

So who is it, then?  You betray your doubt on a Toaster/TolyK cult since you just said ONE third party.

Really? That's the thing that betrayed my doubt in the two of you being a cult?  Not, for instance, my attacking you over being 100% certain on your reads?

In other words: No, I'm not 100% certain; but you win today if you're cult, while a one man team wont.

I'm going to go get some sleep and try to find the time to re-read tomorrow before the lynch; my vote will remain on TolyK overnight for one simple reason:

OVERNIGHT?? You really need sleep, I guess, huh?

If you and Tolyk are a cult, we're already at MYLO; it would have been LYLO but Tiruin claims to have two lives.  All you have to do is get someone lynched, let NQT die, and land a NK.  Bam: four players left, and a two man-cult team; cult wins.  If Ranger is sole surviving scum, he can't win tomorrow even if we kill the two of you and he FINALLY lands a NK that isn't blocked; same number of players, but a one-man scum team. 

... How the hell can we be a cult, if we were turned into Lovers and Brothers? And if there was a cult, wouldn't it be obvious by now, since there were already several nights, which would lead to more than 2 people in the cult?

Web:
If a revive type ability (such as Tiruin claimed) is poisoned, and is let to die or lynched do they remain poisoned?

Also interested in this.

Tiruin: Both.

The added wincon is us being brothers to each other AKA one wins if the other wins.  The Lover refers to our chat and suicidal grief tendencies.

Yep.
Brotherly love. :3

[RangerCado]

Toaster: Noticed you said you saw 4 unique visitors when talking about changed wincon. I found out that quicktopic counts the different computers that check it as unique. (Learned this from the BM chats after logging into the scum chat from about 6 different computers)

Unless 2 more people (i think) vote for an extension, this is the last day for Day 4. My suspicions currently are:

Tiruin, (for all past reasons i've stated flawed or not)

Tolyk, (He isn't using his poison threat to scum hunt, and has not mentioned at all if he is letting someone die today or not. His actions so far don't speak well to me of his intentions, and i regret trying to protect him yesterday.)

and NQT. (I don't trust him anymore. He's either scum with godfather, or a third party messing with everyone also with godfather. He comes out of nowhere with his accusation on me, asks me very little in the way of questions for my "scummy actions" that he accuses me of, (even if i get where he's coming from) And hasn't questioned anyone else on their actions, despite having other scum picks before me)

[notquitethere]

You've got to understand Ranger that my suspicions on you are grounded in the claims everyone has made and if you're actually town then that's going to be difficult to defend yourself against. I've asked you to give me a more compelling explanation for the night time actions and the lack of scumkills. Instead, you're flailing around, OMGUSing me.

Do you really think I'd be a Godfather on top of being a redirecter and a lover-inducer, and have my vote conditional on a townsperson staying a live and also be immune to kills from certain people. Does that sound remotely plausible? How many powers do you think Wuba would give me? You've painted yourself into a corner with your town inspect and your earlier lies have undermined trust we might have in your later claims. Griff has seen me using my redirect ability in the night, you've supposedly town inspected me, TolyK and Toaster have confirmed my lovers power. What more do you want, a colonoscopy? Look at the evidence and put together a compelling case or just admit that you're scum and save us all some time.

[Griffionday]

Note: I've not had time to re-read, however for now I'm convinced that Toaster's quotes are genuine and TolyK and Toaster are not in a cult. 

Unvote & Extend (I'll not blame anyone if they don't vote for an extend though.)

TolyK:

Not cool, man.

I know, it won't happen again.

OVERNIGHT?? You really need sleep, I guess, huh?

Wow, I used both meanings for day in one post... yeah I needed the sleep.

... How the hell can we be a cult, if we were turned into Lovers and Brothers? And if there was a cult, wouldn't it be obvious by now, since there were already several nights, which would lead to more than 2 people in the cult?

I refer you to the faq:

Q. Does the SK/Cult have a built-in kill/convert?
A. No. No other alignment besides Mafia has any group ability available to them.

And it made sense as an alternative to the Brother win con: so you were turned into lovers and cult.

Toaster:

You didn't answer my question on who you suspect to be whom, but perhaps you should get some sleep first.

TolyK would be a SK claiming vig, meaning you would have been the mafia.  I may have assumed this was obvious.

[Tiruin]

NQT. (I don't trust him anymore. He's either scum with godfather, or a third party messing with everyone also with godfather. He comes out of nowhere with his accusation on me, asks me very little in the way of questions for my "scummy actions" that he accuses me of, (even if i get where he's coming from) And hasn't questioned anyone else on their actions, despite having other scum picks before me)

Interesting that you turn on NQT--the person who you trusted for the past day and based your vote cases on from the previous.

So what's wrong with all the things you stated? No quotes, but only reasoning? You get where he's coming from, and you see that he has, in fact, questioned others through declarative statements which drew out people to state a proceeding statement (communication, in other words).

Also, he did say he has scum picks, but you were rated high on it due to the conclusive evidence on the actions.

Is that your whole case?

[TolyK]

Toaster: Noticed you said you saw 4 unique visitors when talking about changed wincon. I found out that quicktopic counts the different computers that check it as unique. (Learned this from the BM chats after logging into the scum chat from about 6 different computers)

Unless 2 more people (i think) vote for an extension, this is the last day for Day 4. My suspicions currently are:

Tiruin, (for all past reasons i've stated flawed or not)

Tolyk, (He isn't using his poison threat to scum hunt, and has not mentioned at all if he is letting someone die today or not. His actions so far don't speak well to me of his intentions, and i regret trying to protect him yesterday.)

and NQT. (I don't trust him anymore. He's either scum with godfather, or a third party messing with everyone also with godfather. He comes out of nowhere with his accusation on me, asks me very little in the way of questions for my "scummy actions" that he accuses me of, (even if i get where he's coming from) And hasn't questioned anyone else on their actions, despite having other scum picks before me)

WTF, Ranger. He's 97% proven. You really want his death, don't you?

[RangerCado]

Moment of clarity, let's dig my own grave.

I'VE BEEN LYING

First, lets get a real full claim out.

I am a shadowdancer.

The redirect, all true, nothing wrong there.

The saves, partially a lie. I do have a lynch save, and I do have an auto ability redirect, their just seperate abilities.

The day inspect on NQT, Completely False. I wanted to have a player i could trust, and hopefully find out if i was wrong about them. I should probably have never done the whole lie to begin with, and this is probably going to end with my death, but i'm done. I should have come clean back Day 2.Ability 1: A redirect that will redirect everyone targeting 1 player to another, and vice-versa. (used)

Ability 2: Any ability that targets me during the night is redirected to a random player but can still hit me. If a hostile ability (like poison) is redirected like this, I no longer have the ability. (to my knowledge, still active)

Ability 3: I can make myself, or another player, completely immune to death for the day. This will auto onto me if i'm the one in danger. (used)I never day inspected NQT, I've been suspicious of him since Mid-Day 3, And it was all a stupid idea. Despite comming clean, i'm probably a dead-man today. If the only way for me to be believed is to flip town, so be it. UNVOTE. and RANGERCADO. (yes i just hammered myself)

and last but not least: BAH!