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[Griffionday]

Ranger:

Griff: If it helps i can say my official role name and/or the official names of my abilities. ShadowDancer was my official Role Name. Ability names i will say on a request of 3 or more players. Also, anything from are friends from the grave?

I don't care about the names, but can you give me more of a sense of the flavor surrounding them? (note: DON'T copy paste, as that's not allowed, but a better paraphrase would be nice.)

And outside of what I quoted? Eh, not really, I try to post what they want to be seen in the main thread, I'm not going to post all 400 posts.

Tiruin:

Tiruin @1266: Not something you'd do because I don't think you'd use underhand methods to get ahead. The reason for thinking this is when you said something like "using RL as an excuse for lazyness is frowned upon". You just strike me as an "honourable" person, I guess.

Next point: What? It's hard for me to trust you when you talk about how you would lie.

Okay, here is why lying makes you scum, hopefully as concisely as possible:

I had a reason for suspicion of you. You lied. Now, town would not do that, because a) lying about something like that would probably cause confusion, something town would not want and b) there would probably be an explanation for that suspicious thing. Would scum do that? Maybe, because it removes suspicion from you, and the confusion is not a bad thing for scum. Now, you might say "Well, town would lie to remove suspicion from them, too". But really? I can't imagine myself doing that as town. I can't imagine the logic that would cause anyone else to do that as town either.

NQT:

Griff
Could you please try to do something more helpful than send out undirected weak attacks on everyone except Vector.

It's been a LONG two weeks, and none of the current cases really make sense to me.

Griff
1. I asked Wuba about whether the ability could change someone's Wincon, as that was news to me, and he said that it was possible. My power is balanced by the fact that it was dead easy for me to lose my lynch vote.
2. But it was beautifully pro-town. Are you seriously quibbling about my word choices?
3. I wasn't contradicting myself, I was lying-- there's a difference. I didn't want Toaster and TolyK bumping me off if they were scum by giving away that I thought they were scummy. Now I don't think they're the most likely scum.
4. Surely this a nulltell? It's just a fact that you would regret lynching me just as I regret lynching Ford.
5. Sure, I suspected ranger was making it up. Now I'm pretty sure Ranger is scum and you shouldn't trust what he says anyhow.

1.  Fair.
2.  Yes actually; your word choices indicate the way you're thinking and the word choice used seemed to indicate that you were thinking less.  "This will help us catch scum" and more "This is brilliant of me I tell you! BRILLIANT!".  In other words you were focusing on self over team, which indicates scum.
3.  Sorry, that's obviously NOT the reason you were lying.  If you have the protect you are currently claiming you wouldn't have cared at that point as you were safe for the night from either of their attacks.
4.  Nope; you're essentially trying to change people's opinions on you based on an emotion rather than showing that you're town by playing as a town.
5.  I don't, but that's a different story entirely. 

[notquitethere]

Ranger, I wanted to believe you at first, sure. And I could see your actions as potentially town actions. But the evidence is pretty suggestive. But look, if you're really town, I'd hate to lynch you if you are. Look at the table of claims and put forward a more compelling case. In the mean time, I'd suggest you don't lynch Tiruin as it's quite unlikely she's scum given my action last night.

TolyK, I know I thought Tiruin was the scummiest yesterday and so that's why I targeted her last night. I redirected her to Griff and Griff is still alive, so it's unlikely Tiruin is scum. (Either that or scum haven't been using their night kill.)

Griff, was there a point amongst all this that you wanted me to explain under pressure, or have you considered all the evidence and decided I am the one we should hang? This isn't the time to be messing around. Look at the table of claims and work out for yourself what the best explanation is for what's happening.

[RangerCado]

My roles flavor (i hope this is paraphrasing enough) states that the darkness is my friend and i can do anything in the shadows but i like being around you guys.

More later, i have stuff to do. ciao

[Griffionday]

NQT:

Griff, was there a point amongst all this that you wanted me to explain under pressure, or have you considered all the evidence and decided I am the one we should hang? This isn't the time to be messing around.

In order of what I want you to respond to: 3, 4, 2, 5, 1.  I'm not messing around, I just refuse to blindly accept that your read is the correct one when you've mostly been playing defensive and using your abilities to get read.

We have until Wednesday; I've got the time. 

Look at the table of claims and work out for yourself what the best explanation is for what's happening.

I've read your table: I consider it to mostly be WIFOM, as you're assuming there is only one person left to lynch.  I've been over why I think that that is rubbish.  Your read EXCLUSIVLY rests on the assumption that night-kills will always be used, which is valid if it is one of several balanced reasons, but not something I would rely on on it's own right because it's terribly easy to fake us out; especially when we prove we're easy to confuse by no NK's occurring. 

You claim your town-flip would do wonders for his credibility.  Why?  Yeah he'd have called it out, but that would just draw suspicion to himself as he linked himself to you.  Surly that would be a null tell?

Most likely: No lynch scum roles such as doomspeaker, arsonist, poisoner, or cult.  Also possibly that mafia is just creating WIFOM knowing that we'll kill ourselves over it.

Ranger:

My roles flavor (i hope this is paraphrasing enough) states that the darkness is my friend and i can do anything in the shadows but i like being around you guys.

I meant the flavor of your abilities, sorry.  I got that your element was shadows.

[Tiruin]

Posting from work. Posting in descending order from my post.

...I'd say lynch either Ranger or Tiruin. Perhaps lynch Ranger and make Tolyk kill Tiruin. I wonder if you could go through both Tiruin's lives in one go if you combine the lynch and the poison. You should ask about that. If Ranger flips town, it will confirm his inspect on NQT.

I guess I'd kill Tiruin. If Tolyk really is town, then because of the nuke ability, Tiruin is likely scum.

Even the dead speak against me without giving their reasons. People must really hate me, huh.

Tiruin:
Tiruin is obviously a third party:
1.  Around half of her arguing with people seems to be based on her confusion about what the other player is saying; which I feel wouldn't be the case if she were interested in reading into what people are saying to determine what they're saying as apposed to just skimming.  But at the same time she's obviously scrutinizing the posts to get her reads, so she seems to to faking scum hunting.
2. 

Actually, Tolyk made an excellent point. Since he does have a nuke, it makes a ton of sense for scum to have protections. That makes both Tiruin and NQT likely scum...

3.  She's the only person whose action claims have not been confirmed by anyone else. 

1. Check what I'm saying. You're basing that on my recent post, I figure--try looking back and find what I'm actually saying rather than the superficial notes.
2. I love being outed on technicalities rather than scumhunting.
3. I PROTECTED PEOPLE, LOOK AT THE LACK OF NIGHTKILLS.

But you know what? I'm tired of trying to convince people about anything anymore. Nobody listens at all, for rather than try to discern any kind of conceptual basis as a foothold--you all judge by assumptions.

I'm a third party--WHY?!

I mean, everything most of you all say are based on my role--its there in full, discriminate it if you wish. Reason why I would want to protect you, of all people; relate it with whatever evidence any of you got.

Tiruin: Why are you so quick to join NQT? You've suspected him for most of the game and yet you haven't questioned him much at all today, even joining him seeming against me without questioning him on his findings at all. This doesn't seem right at all.

Quick to join what? I sense a lot of defensiveness there. I've suspected him under grounds of his claims, and then you try to prod on my arguments by stating...the bolded part?

Read back, see my queries to him.

OH YEAH
Though it was included on my sheet of claimed actions, which Ranger obviously hasn't read (make of that what you will), this probably could do with being made more explicit:

Tiruin is probably not scum.

I redirected her to Griffionday last night and Griff is still alive now. Griff hasn't claimed any self-protecting ability, and the only person to have claimed to have protected Griff last night was Tiruin herself.

Look, if you're like RangerCado and haven't bothered to read the collected claims sheet, I seriously recommend you doing so.

...Why did you redirect me to Griffy when I targeted Griffy? >_>

What's your take on Griffionday?

Tiruin:

Tiruin @1266: Not something you'd do because I don't think you'd use underhand methods to get ahead. The reason for thinking this is when you said something like "using RL as an excuse for lazyness is frowned upon". You just strike me as an "honourable" person, I guess.

Next point: What? It's hard for me to trust you when you talk about how you would lie.

Okay, here is why lying makes you scum, hopefully as concisely as possible:

I had a reason for suspicion of you. You lied. Now, town would not do that, because a) lying about something like that would probably cause confusion, something town would not want and b) there would probably be an explanation for that suspicious thing. Would scum do that? Maybe, because it removes suspicion from you, and the confusion is not a bad thing for scum. Now, you might say "Well, town would lie to remove suspicion from them, too". But really? I can't imagine myself doing that as town. I can't imagine the logic that would cause anyone else to do that as town either.

Mmhh, I get what you're saying :/

But I didn't lie. That's a reason which bases itself on the person stating it, and the person defending against it.
a. Lying in that context was on a post. A post that I posted (albeit late)--I expected you to continue on that post and prod it, however it was dismissed and replaced with the label of being a lie, something I can't actually defend because from my PoV, it's an opinion.

b. Yay Lawful Good . Anyway, yeah. I see the doubt there, but there must at least be some checking on the basis or intention of the person in question: jumping to conclusions isn't a good thing as it'll leave the other person (benevolent or malevolent) to use the gap between the logic to argue upon.

c. ...I doubt there was suspicion. Also, I wouldn't say the quotational part, (because suspicion was never on my mind there). And...

Err, I think I see where our thoughts diverge. You think I'm using that as a smokescreen while I see it that you were using the moral context of lying in pointing me out as scum.

> I wasn't, in any way, using that as a smokescreen. In thought or in written/typed word. Nor did I ever intend it to come off as that.

Ranger, I wanted to believe you at first, sure. And I could see your actions as potentially town actions. But the evidence is pretty suggestive. But look, if you're really town, I'd hate to lynch you if you are. Look at the table of claims and put forward a more compelling case. In the mean time, I'd suggest you don't lynch Tiruin as it's quite unlikely she's scum given my action last night.

O_o

Ok...this speaks to me as you being...two faced, for lack of a definition. You suspect Ranger is scum, then suggest him to not lynch me.

...What are you thinking there?

Griff, was there a point amongst all this that you wanted me to explain under pressure, or have you considered all the evidence and decided I am the one we should hang? This isn't the time to be messing around. Look at the table of claims and work out for yourself what the best explanation is for what's happening.

Why are you poking at him voting you and not what he's saying in why he's voting you?

My roles flavor (i hope this is paraphrasing enough) states that the darkness is my friend and i can do anything in the shadows but i like being around you guys.

More later, i have stuff to do. ciao

...Why do you think role flavor helps, at all?

[Griffionday]

Tiruin:

My roles flavor (i hope this is paraphrasing enough) states that the darkness is my friend and i can do anything in the shadows but i like being around you guys.

More later, i have stuff to do. ciao

...Why do you think role flavor helps, at all?

This one was because I asked for it.  It's part of how I'm trying to determine if people are lying about their role claims.  Easy to fake but should at the very least catch people who are being lazy.

1. Check what I'm saying. You're basing that on my recent post, I figure--try looking back and find what I'm actually saying rather than the superficial notes.
2. I love being outed on technicalities rather than scumhunting.
3. I PROTECTED PEOPLE, LOOK AT THE LACK OF NIGHTKILLS.

1. I started noticing it D2, about I started interacting with you; I can try to pull together a list if you'd like.
2. Fair complaint, I promise I'll put together a more complete case if I vote you.
3. Which is admittedly the most likely scenario as to why there were no NK's, however it is not provable until the end.

I'm a third party--WHY?!

I mean, everything most of you all say are based on my role--its there in full, discriminate it if you wish. Reason why I would want to protect you, of all people; relate it with whatever evidence any of you got.

Because you never gave ANY indication that you were working as a team.  And your confusion is far to genuine for you to have been scum.

In the (likely) scenario that you are the doctor, you've already explained why you targeted me and the logic makes sense.

Toaster:
May I press you for your current reads now that the shock of sheep being town is gone?

[RangerCado]

My abilities don't have much flavor attached i've realized.

My redirect says i manipulate the comings and goings of players.

My lynch and ability protects say the player is hidden by darkness.

And my day inspect says in the most literal sense possible, that i'm a stealthy (profanity)

[Tiruin]

3. I PROTECTED PEOPLE, LOOK AT THE LACK OF NIGHTKILLS.

3. Which is admittedly the most likely scenario as to why there were no NK's, however it is not provable until the end.

That's my point...

Also, just in case anyone was wondering--My reaction to Griff's post back then was solely due to how he classified [EVERYONE] into non-town areas. Third-party/scum/Paranoia.

My abilities don't have much flavor attached i've realized.

My redirect says i manipulate the comings and goings of players.

My lynch and ability protects say the player is hidden by darkness.

And my day inspect says in the most literal sense possible, that i'm a stealthy (profanity)

Ok, how do you even know the flavor of the results? I don't even know what my flavor of people receiving my abilities get.

[RangerCado]

thats the flavor in the abilities descriptions.

[TolyK]

Meh, quick post (I hope).

TolyK, you're a good man and all, so I've so ask whether you've been listening to what I've been saying in the past regarding myself once more.

But first things first, what is your case? I could be a townie helping you...with what, given your words.

As in, when I put the nuke, if you're town you would still be alive alongside me, which is what I meant.

I ask you when you plan to use your Nuke because I'm still suspecting you (and Ranger now that stuff happened, too busy to think of it now...). You vote me on purely assumptive basis--what's the reasoning behind me stating such, huh? Any conclusive evidence in the past?

I can't use it this day, since only 2 people are poisoned and alive.
You seem off. I already said that it's very likely scum would have some countermeasure against my nuke (which could kill everyone off otherwise). It's a free action, so I could activate it day as well, so night protects wouldn't help in this case, thus extra lives help.

It's also important to know that NQT is unkillable by the nuke.

Second:

Some clarification:[...]
- I really, really wish that Toaster was actually scum - almost guaranteed victory for both of us! Alas, I really doubt this is the case. I also really, really doubt that there are two scum, AND both of them happen to be us... So, you shouldn't kill either of us.

Now. I'm town, whether you like it or not, and I think I've enough arguments on me to show that. Thus, I'll be acting as if I'm confirmed town, at least for most of this post.

See bolded part. What.

Alignment: Brother
Wincon: You win when [player_name] wins.

Alignment: Town
Wincon: You win when all anti-Town factions are dead. (Mafia, Cult, SK, Lyncher, Assassin and respective Allies and Brothers)

Alignment: Mafia
Wincon: You win when your team equals or outnumbers the remaining players and all other killing roles are dead.

Read the above. Why are you afraid of death?

When I die, Toaster also dies. That's 2 townies down in one hit. Me no like.

There's also the thing...
If someone can reset NQT's lover ability, then the remaining scum can be lover'd to a player. Then we kill the scum, and he wins...

There's another thing...

How are you so sure about 'the remaining scum' when there's ONE PERSON OUT OF US SEVEN?! TWO ARE LOVERS, RIGHT?

Yeah? Scum is singular as well as plural. Note the "he wins", not "they win". If they cooperate, we can have them win with town (if, of course, NQT's lover ability is reset).

So sure you are. So vague is your persuasion. Could you at least go straight to the point, please? I know what I did; I know what I've done--nobody ever pokes at the past in regard to 'OMG TIRUIN IS SCUM' but always jumps on recent posts.

The whole post above irks me on 2 scum left, but that's just me and being tired thinking out loud.

When did I say 2 scum left?

Back to TolyK

Now. I'm town, whether you like it or not, and I think I've enough arguments on me to show that. Thus, I'll be acting as if I'm confirmed town, at least for most of this post.

And so you're oh so determined to prove it by voting me without expounding the case. Which arguments show you're town, by the way?

I've already more or less proved it. I am lovers with Toaster, and we have all the reason to cooperate, and thus we are pro-town in any conceivable scenario.

PS: Think of this. Set the scenario at a Nuke-point. If I'm scum, I'd rather kill people than protect/whatever you can think of.

We've seven people--let's say everything I've got was blocked or protected or whatever else happened.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

notquitethere
Griffonday
RangerCado

Toaster
TolyK

Vector
Tiruin

I've segregated those with a +1 life. Those with a Brother's wincon (you kill Toaster, you die the next phase, if my memory serves correct) and the time is set to us three.

Knowing that, you've a choice of Vector or I. Vector has a vote-steal power.

QED. Logic.

NQT doesn't die. Toaster dies, and so do I.

Extend

TolyK

Proposition (with the same definition of 'what do you think?'): Nuke it.

Strange, huh?
It's also strange that I'm a town Poisoner and Nuker.
Since I read my role, I got to thinking - some scum or third party HAS to have either masskill immunity, or a revive or something, otherwise it wouldn't be explicitly stated in my role that my masskill ability doesn't go through protects and immunity, as well as through revives (i.e. takes out only one life). Otherwise, I could fairly easily win the game for town by killing everyone!

So you're immune to your nuke?  Because I'm pretty sure town has to be alive to win.

Yep.\

[Tiruin]

Now. I'm town, whether you like it or not, and I think I've enough arguments on me to show that. Thus, I'll be acting as if I'm confirmed town, at least for most of this post.

And so you're oh so determined to prove it by voting me without expounding the case. Which arguments show you're town, by the way?

I've already more or less proved it. I am lovers with Toaster, and we have all the reason to cooperate, and thus we are pro-town in any conceivable scenario.
[/quote]Ok. Let me get this straight.

> NQT Lover'd you and Toaster. That skill overrides any wincon and sets it to Brother-buddy: even if one of you may be mafia (and thus the last one standing--more than hopefully the case here), he can't win without killing himself, which would only be the case if him and his lover would be alive.

> You will die if Toaster dies, and vice versa. So if you NUke off, NQT, Vector and I will be alive. That's it.

> This spreadsheet.

Hold on. Read-edit. Vector is only immune to night kills...So if you Nuke during the day, then I and NQT will be the only survivors (as opposed to nuking at night, wherein there'll be 3 [Vector's NK immunity] or 4, with the 4th being someone I protect...doubtful given that Webadict doesn't have a power-action organization chart).

To be frank: Your only case against me is 'countermeasure'?

Spoiler: Other trivialities (click to show/hide)

You never said 2 scum left, I just pounced on the passing thought there.

Has NQT full claimed today? I don't see it upon a search-engine search. That, and my memory must've forgotten it if he did.

There's also the thing...
If someone can reset NQT's lover ability, then the remaining scum can be lover'd to a player. Then we kill the scum, and he wins...

There's another thing...

How are you so sure about 'the remaining scum' when there's ONE PERSON OUT OF US SEVEN?! TWO ARE LOVERS, RIGHT?

Yeah? Scum is singular as well as plural. Note the "he wins", not "they win". If they cooperate, we can have them win with town (if, of course, NQT's lover ability is reset).

I still don't get how cooperation has them win as town. Because if NQT changes wincons--scum can't win with town given their wincon as Mafia.

Also...I don't get how numerical wording takes play there--you say 'they' in cooperate, but a singular when talking about scum, right?

[RangerCado]

Tiruin: NQT is the only one who hasn't posted their full claim in a single post yet... (i don't count the spreadsheet)

NQT: Why haven't you made a full claim yet?

Griff: found an old question from you i didn't answer, sorry about that.

Ranger:
Yes actually: does your back-story mention anyone else?
Quote from: RangerCado on May 10, 2013, 12:25:19 pm

    Hey Ford! Tell Griff why you disagree with both political parties, and by extension, Griff tell us what he said. (this will make sense later)
Quote from: Captain Ford

    I don't remember that conversation clearly ... I'm in an odd place politically, and there's a lot of things I might have said.

    WAIT! I remember. Hollywood. I don't like democrats because they support Hollywood and DRM. I don't like republicans because I'm pro-choice. Or something. I forget exactly.

    I personally believe we should create a computerized system that allows us as citizens to have as much granularity with our votes as we desire, allowing us to say, weigh-in on a particular bill, or to just cede our votes to someone we trust.

    I also believe that it's a terrible idea to let the public have a say in most of the government, because unless you have enough time to fully understand all sides of an issue, you're not going to be able to come up with a good solution.

    ...government is hard.

...sorry for the butchering of the quote, still trying to figure out how quoting works fully. To answer, my back-story doesn't mention Ford at all actually. He and I had a conversation awhile back that somehow turned to government. Thats why i asked for Ford to tell you that specifically.

As for where i found this quote: Page 81, 4th to last post.

[Toaster]

Griff:  Accusing everyone won't get you very far, especially when you call yourself (nearly) the Only Sane Man.

But yeah, let's go over everyone here.

I know I'm not scum.
TolyK isn't scum, because he would have told me.
NQT I am pretty damned confident isn't mafia.  Oddball third party, perhaps, but not mafia.  His actions just don't make sense for a member of the mafia team, especially redirecting their actions around.
Vector probably isn't mafia, because doing nothing at night just seems odd.  Actually, hmm...  see question to Mod.
Griff I have a very strong town read on, by the way he's been pursuing leads and questioning people.
If NQT is telling the truth, then Tiruin is town by the same logic that Vector is.


That leaves Ranger as scum.

I've noticed Ranger has been deflecting a lot.  Here is one example, in his response to me- I ask him a question about misrepresenting claims and the first thing he does is point out how NQT has been doing it.  I ask him about not voting and he turns it right around at me.  Looking back, the protection of TolyK *is* suspect- I wager you did it to make him look bad and have town faff about an extra day- or alternatively, to let him poison off people you knew were town.


WUBA:  Does the Mafia team have a Mafiakill?


Tiruin:

> NQT Lover'd you and Toaster. That skill overrides any wincon and sets it to Brother-buddy

Not quite true- it gives an additional wincon that makes it either-or.

[Toaster]

Oh man, I thought of this right as I hit submit.

NQT:  Are you a third party of some special sort that only wins if your lovers win?

[Griffionday]

Toaster

Griff:  Accusing everyone won't get you very far, especially when you call yourself (nearly) the Only Sane Man.

Accusing everyone has served it's purposes admirably actually; I've fully explained why I did it already, and feel if you'd actually read my posts after you'd have understood WHY I decided to post in that fashion.  But no, you decided just to poke at the fact that I don't seem confident in my reads.

As I understand it's possible to misinterpret what I'm trying to get at in my read one you please respond to the following: Why did you claim that you could potentially play as a mafia/sk ally for your brother?  And more importantly why have you dropped that as a possibility and decided that only him selling out his allies would be a possible response to being bothered?  It seems like you've reanalyzed the reasons behind why TolyK would tell you that he's scum; but considering that you've had three days to consider all the possibilities and hash them out with TolyK you SHOULD NOT have needed to reassess.   Ergo you're lying about the brother win-con.

So NQT did not know his ability could change wincons. Well. That changes things dramatically. Then it is far more likely that one of Tolyk or Toaster is scum and they're lying about exactly how their wincons were changed.

I'm betting their new wincon is that they only win if both of them are alive. Since the game cannot end unless either all the mafia are dead, or the mafia outnumber the town, then the only way for them to both survive would be a mafia win.

They did receive clarification from Wuba that meant that they had no reason not to claim scum to each other. But not for the reasons stated, and they do have a good reason to lie about it to the rest of us. And what did they do right after that? Tolyk asked NQT if he knew about the wincon change. If they planned to lie about it, they had to know if they could get away with it.

They are SCUM, and they need to DIE.

It fits it fits it fits IT FITS! And so well ... ha ha ha ha ha ha.

With that wincon change, it isn't an insta-lose for scum. It didn't make any sense that the lovers could win if they died.

The reason why Tolyk claimed vig is so damn obvious now. He was lovered to Toaster! He was being watched closely by a townie, and they probably claimed their roles in private. Up until they got clarification from Web, he couldn't afford not to act like a vig!

The both of them have been too quiet and too lazy, especially since they found out they had to win as scum, as NQT noted, "it was obvious from the way they played yesterday that they were lovers".

[Emphasis in original]

So... yeah: TolyK as he's the more dangerous of the two of you.

NQT
Please answer the questions; although I'm ready to use my lynch vote now.

Losing your vote does not even come close to balancing an "all scum DIE" ability.