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[Tiruin]

Confirmed. Activity spikes in hours past 10pm :/

Zrk2

Zrk2: Is lurking no longer a cause for suspicion? Because UI only has 4 posts up till now, and a few others haven't posted much either.

I picked the two with the fewest posts. Four is also terrible.

Ugh :/

So of all leads, you decide to poke at lurkers without threatening them or inquiring the usual "WHERE ARE YOU [LURKER]" along with a probable coloring of their name in blue or red.

Lurking is a damnable offence because it is unproductive. It hurts the town because you aren't finding scum. It hurts the town because they can't get reads on you. It hurts the town because there could be a more productive player in your place. Lurkers are a waste of a player space.

I lack faith in D1 lynches because almost every last one ends in a townie lynch. As I said earlier there simply isn't enough information available D1 to make a conclusive case, so rather than risk the lynch on someone who has been productive but "scummy" is a bad idea. If they really are scummy they will still be scummy D2, and lurkers will also still lurk D2. Thus lynching a lurker is more likely to pay off because it gets rid of a guaranteed threat rather than a possible one.

My case on Ranger was summarized above. It is that he wanted to hurt the town with a D1 no-lynch. BUT ALSO did not shift away from that stance until it threatened to get him lynched, not after it had been demonstrated to be fallacious.

Thus I think he is scum. But if he is town and he lives on he may shape up, but he also may not. That's just semantics.

...Because there could be a more productive player in your place...Ok. So by all that in the first statement, it smells like you're painting them as town. Useless town, but town. So what in the world is the logic of lynching scum at all?! That in itself is fallacious.

Useless =/= scum. Being a raging a** =/= scum. The indicators are in the essence of their posts, and I've not seen once that you're poking at those indicators.

On your faith, do you even see the context behind the lynch? Yeah, it may be a townie, but then people can also detect the intentions behind the lynches then poke at that. Using said information in the later days. WHile there isn't enough conclusive information to make a case, that information (regardless of the lynch alignment) ALSO leads to information later on.

The whole premise of "If lurker = D1, then lurker = D2." or "Scummy D1 = Scummy D2" all reside within the context, and you're relying on a general explanation to fortify your argument. And what, if Ranger is town? Your next two leads (for lack of you giving reads after being asked), ARE ACCUSED LURKERS. What will you build your case on? A weak "WHY U NO POST D1"? Then start from there?

You aren't questioning those who lurk as opposed to that who you target. I mean, I could agree with you on the lurker stance, but then think its weak -- still valid in thought, except you lacked to question them. Or poke them. At all.

Then you say

It's an acceptable loss because they weren't doing anything for the town anyway.

Regarding Griff's idea

Spoiler: Marked here (click to show/hide)

So Zrk2, my vote is on you primarily because I feel the way you are acting in D1 is the most harmful to the town in the long run.  Yes you're playing qualitatively better than Ranger, but Ranger has been learning over the course of the game, and has expressed what felt like genuine concern that he doesn't have reads yet.  You on the other hand seem to be playing a self-fulfilling prophesy, if the only lynch we should do D1 is the weakest player, then the town will always be lynched D1.  Not [#mafia]/[#players]*100 percent of the time. ALWAYS.  Why you ask? the mafia have their chat, the strongest player can help the weaker players play better in the game, ensuring that if that rule is followed D1 will end in a town lynch.

But more than that, you deprive us of a valuable read on you as I mentioned earlier.  You're crippling the town N1 and early D2 by your vote for the weakest strategy.

Please tell me why you feel that this is an acceptable loss again?

And then earlier

Unfortunately I'm not very good at forcing people so I tend to keep an eye on everyone, responding to questions and analyzing the arguments of others until I find someone who I think is scum. Then I check through their posts, and if it seems likely I compile my case and move my vote. It's simply a different approach to scumhunting.

I ask you to summarize your reads or in the very least to summarize why you think your target is scum. Do you believe that every other case is as weak as the probability of getting a town lynch is more possible than a scum lynch? Numbers don't matter, but how the person defends him/herself, including how communication is given. Wherein numbers pertain to the majority vs informed minority. It's all within their context and not just because of numbers, which I seem to think you're getting at.

Your case on Ranger? It falls purely on the basis of him suggesting a No-lynch, then...backing off? I don't see that. Probably because we're looking at it differently, but the timing doesn't correlate to that. Quote it. Link it. You say he wanted to hurt town, but I see him communicate and then argumentatively accept the consensus as well as voicing his opinion on the no-lynch thing. While he was flailing about "Oh woe be the lynch", he did add his (however superficial) reads and view on the matter, including an understandable case on himself regarding the no-lynch.

Did you press Ranger then? Hows about continuing the pressure now? Your case seems to be locked in the past as you keep on pointing to "I summarized it above".

Please, answer in full. Thanks. Because I'm really under the impression of vagueness regarding your case. What are your full reads on everyone, and details on who you suspect?

Ford

NQT: Why are you still voting UI? Why did you let your scumhunting fall completely to the wayside once you claimed your ability?

From lack of context, seems like you're defending UI. Why the first question?


Ranger

Captain: Since this appears to be something Zrk did before and flipped town, (i did go and read it and it feels all to similar to this) i'll unvote.as for who would seem lynch worthy, i would say Urist Imiknorris. He was my second scum pick and i still think his reasons of going after me are as bad as Zrk's. If Zrk continues his behaviour into day 2 (provided he and i survive) I will continue to go after him unless the behaviour becomes productive. Also to answer your first question, I was panicing a bit and from the start i was a bit of a trainwreck. I've improved since and kinda regret doing that.

UI: Given recent and previous developments, do you really believe i or Zrk should be lynched?

Dear me. Metatell on Zrk?!

Why do you feel Zrk is innocent. Purely because of meta? In THIS GAME'S CONTEXT, why did you unvote?

-snip-

...And what is your reason on voting UI so late in the day?

Why aren't you going after Zrk now? Is there anything hindering you from now instead of D2, as you point out there? Also, how do those reactions from Zrk correlate from what you've seen before, to poke on your tangent of thought?

Griffy

Vector:

Vector - town

It's nothing major, just saying that if you actually took the time to analyze yourself and came up with that (rather than just saying it because "why not"), it'd be suspicious.  And you seem to have gotten mostly the same reads I have, which makes me feel more confident...  Which could be a ruse (rattles off into WIFOM land).

You're...second guessing yourself because Vector mentioned herself as town?

Ok...what's up with that? You doubt that Vector is town or...?

TolyK

Hm. Experiment. If Uri Eye notices that I said this, then he I have a hypothesis. I don't want anyone other than him to answer this, just for the interest. If he doesn't answer in his next 2 posts then I get information as well, and I might pressure-vote him. As I said, I want ONLY him to answer this, don't quote or refer to it until he posts. Alrite?

Uri Eye? You mean UI? Use more conventional acronyms or abbreviations :/

Also. What information did you get due to the next 2 posts there? It's real confusing given that we have timezones. And then a "Might pressure-vote him", why the transparency?

You really seem to be flailing over NQT's case given that he hasn't responded to it, muchly. It could be trapped/warped or whatnot, and we could always ask the Mod. Is this all you've got regarding NQT's power? because that comes off as confused poking at a future point.

    @TolyK: Judging by your words there, you paint NQT as scum, and yet your vote is...? Still on TWS for trivial reasons.

No, I paint him pink. Or rather, I only say that his proposal is unlikely to be pure.
TWS - ?

Pink. Are you being sarcastically vague? Because if a proposal is unlikely to be pure; and in context this being D1 (in the viewpoint of NQT=Town), then what reason would he have to give an 'impure' proposal? To catch scum? If this is your reasoning, how is it possible? Depriving town of a resource, yeah, perhaps. I just don't see how that is practical.

TWS...TheWetSheep. :/ Anyway, so what do you think about NQT's proposal, really? Vague, justified town/scum move or...what? It's confusing trying to sort you being confused.

Regarding your view on the vote record, what is your take on those nearing the lynch? Details included; all of them, please. Meaning those you named.

TolyK: As the day starts coming to a close, who do you think is the most likely to be lynched and who will you vote for based on the current information?

Judging by the votecount and what I've read into so far, probably Ranger or NQT, with a chance of Zrk. NQT due to his claim, though I think we should wait on it and posibly experiment with it. Ranger due to being "different" in his thoughts. Zrk due to the vote record.

[Griffionday]

Tiruin:

You're...second guessing yourself because Vector mentioned herself as town?

Ok...what's up with that? You doubt that Vector is town or...?

Not really, my current read on Vector is leaning town, as she is a little to non-involved to be pulling a convoluted plot on us (which she loves to do; meta argument I know, but it's one that makes sense to me) and seems to be providing honest analysis of the posts when she finds the time.  Plus her reads on everyone is VERY close to where mine is, which makes her case more viable to my mind.  I was just pointing out to her that she claimed that she was town without being specifically asked.  Which in some cases is a scum-tell, but in this case was a complete null-tell.

Ford:
Re-read your recent posts:

Unfocused Thoughts:
GriffionDay is definitely giving me a strong town feeling. Staring at his list of votes on the LT, it struck me that he's pushing his suspicions rather fervently. Also, he actually looked at quicktopic to see if there was a way to tell if someone was listening in secretly.

Why did you post this?
Why is your one read just saying someone is a strong town?
Do you have the rest of your reads?

Are we really going to lynch Zrk again? I haven't seen anyone bring up anything that distinguishes his behavior now from his behavior every other time he was mislynched. Lynching him for stuff that he has been consistently shown to do when he's town doesn't seem productive in the least. I can't even conclude much of anything about the alignment of the people who voted for him, since I can't really fault any of their arguments against him.

Hmm... Actually I want to know; why are you defending Zrk?  My reasons for holding off my vote still stand, but if you can't really fault any of our arguments, why do you think it's the wrong thing to do?  Also, there is plenty of meat in most of our arguments, what made you think that you can't find anything conclusive about our alignments in it?  Wouldn't concluding I'm town be PRECISELY a case of that?

Hapah:
You've been gone for a while, care to weigh in on current going ons and update your reads on the players? 

[Tiruin]

PFP
Ford

Are we really going to lynch Zrk again? I haven't seen anyone bring up anything that distinguishes his behavior now from his behavior every other time he was mislynched. Lynching him for stuff that he has been consistently shown to do when he's town doesn't seem productive in the least. I can't even conclude much of anything about the alignment of the people who voted for him, since I can't really fault any of their arguments against him.

Hmm... Actually I want to know; why are you defending Zrk?  My reasons for holding off my vote still stand, but if you can't really fault any of our arguments, why do you think it's the wrong thing to do?  Also, there is plenty of meat in most of our arguments, what made you think that you can't find anything conclusive about our alignments in it?  Wouldn't concluding I'm town be PRECISELY a case of that?

Do you know any of his behavior anytime he was lynched as town? Is your only case on Zrk's innocence being a meta claim? What do you see in him being town, in regard to being productive?

Here, you say that there's not much fault against people's arguments against him. While appreciation must be given for your thoughts (), I'm pretty curious about how you found Zrk. I can agree with that notion, but you seem sure; more sure than me on the guy. Do you read him as town or...what? Or probably you know his alignment, hmm?

Reads on those not voting Zrk, then?

[notquitethere]

I LIED ABOUT THE STRINGS
There were totally strings

I have made my decision and sent it off. As some of you partially figured out, there was a catch. Two players get to talk in privacy just like I said, that much was true. But if one of them dies, the other dies in the next phase. This is a beautifully pro-town move. Let us consider the possible alignments of the folk I've targeted:

Town-Town: Good because they effectively get a mason chat, ensuring better town play.
Town-Third Party: Still an incentive to hunt scum, but added bonus if town player is killed.
Town-Scum: Makes there be one town player the scum won't kill. Worst case, a single town member will inadvertently protect scum. The bad from town death on scum kill is balanced by free scum death on mislynching town.
Third Party-Third Party: This is actually the best case scenario: an effective scum-hunting mason-team that has a high chance of being double-eliminated by scum or town.
Third Party-Scum: Two for the price of one on lynching, though worst case scenario this might lead to scum inadvertently protecting a serial killer or some such.
Scum-Scum: Two for the price of one on lynching!

I am, of course, not going to say who I targeted.

FAQ
Only scum would lie! Not true: sometimes deceit works in town's favour. This was conceived as a risky pro-town gambit. Risky for me, not for town. By getting people's views on my claim I've been able to make a stronger decision- and the results no matter what my pick universally favour town.
Why are you admitting to lying? I don't want the recipients of my move to publicly claim that I deceived them: this would remove the benefit of the gift I gave them. Also, it's in town's benefit to have full disclosure on these matters (to better inform their actions and understanding of what's going on).
You're wrong about it being in town's benefit! Rest assured I have chosen my targets very carefully and to the best of my fallible judgement, I have increased town's chances of winning this. I'm not going to openly speculate on whether I chose particularly town or particularly scummy targets as that would play too much into scum's hands.
Aren't you worried about being a lynch target now? Hopefully, town will see that my intents were in good faith and scum will hesitate at revealing themselves in attacking me openly.
Aren't you worried about being night killed now? It was always a danger, but I still have more tricks up my sleeve...
Why haven't you voted yet? I'm going to wait and see the reaction to this post, and make my final decision based on that.
Why did you use your power now rather than later when you'd have better reads? I'm petrified of being night killed before I get a chance to use it.

[Tiruin]

Only scum would lie!

Look at Hapah in Roguelike V. He lied, but for the benefit of the town.

Nooowww...



Town-Town: Good because they effectively get a mason chat, ensuring better town play.
> If one town dies, the other dies.
> Why didn't you tell us there were strings? Y'know, earlier...since you're saying it in the same day >.>
>...Why during the same day? Concerned much?
> You're withholding your vote. Because you want to see the reactions? No rly. I mean, you could vote beforehand, and you're basing it on reactions? NQT - Suspicions/reads of everyone and details regarding them before that post.
>

Why did you use your power now rather than later when you'd have better reads? I'm petrified of being night killed before I get a chance to use it.

"Did"?

You mean you did use it...Ok. Amend my words earlier; Why reveal the whole thing and then use it this early? How confident are you of your reads?

Why are you admitting to lying? I don't want the recipients of my move to publicly claim that I deceived them: this would remove the benefit of the gift I gave them. Also, it's in town's benefit to have full disclosure on these matters (to better inform their actions and understanding of what's going on).

While it is pro-town, I'd really wonder why they'd claim you lied then poke you at lying given the context of the power. Because that would compromise themselves as you are against naming them.

...Dude, that's one big hole.  Anyway, yeah. How will you discern our reactions btw?

[notquitethere]

Tiruin

Only scum would lie!

Look at Hapah in Roguelike V. He lied, but for the benefit of the town.

Quite. (You do realise that the italicised parts of the FAQ represent other player's potential questions, not statements by me, right?)

Town-Town: Good because they effectively get a mason chat, ensuring better town play.
> If one town dies, the other dies.
> Why didn't you tell us there were strings? Y'know, earlier...since you're saying it in the same day >.>

I wanted to get people's opinions of a pro-town power before they knew the catch. I got a lot more information through trickery this way.

>...Why during the same day? Concerned much?

I wanted to forestall any accusations of underhandedness that would undermine the use of the power, like I explained.

> You're withholding your vote. Because you want to see the reactions? No rly. I mean, you could vote beforehand, and you're basing it on reactions? NQT - Suspicions/reads of everyone and details regarding them before that post.
>

Why did you use your power now rather than later when you'd have better reads? I'm petrified of being night killed before I get a chance to use it.

"Did"?
You mean you did use it...Ok. Amend my words earlier; Why reveal the whole thing and then use it this early? How confident are you of your reads?

I clearly said 'I have made my decision and sent it off' and then explained why. I'm confident of my reads and I've explained why good will likely come of this regardless of who I've chosen. I'm going to hold off on giving my reads publicly, as that would give scum too much information about my likely picks. I hope you all find this understandable.

While it is pro-town, I'd really wonder why they'd claim you lied then poke you at lying given the context of the power. Because that would compromise themselves as you are against naming them.

...Dude, that's one big hole.  Anyway, yeah. How will you discern our reactions btw?

I'm not saying it would be a smart thing for them to do, merely that the possibility of the recipients of my gift claiming about the drawback was enough for me to want to claim first. I'll look at the reactions people post in-thread in response to my claim, as one would expect. I'm not going to break into people's houses and watch them as they open their internet browsers, if that's what you're worried about  .

[Tiruin]

(You do realise that the italicised parts of the FAQ represent other player's potential questions, not statements by me, right?)

...Partly? I thought those were the questions you expected others asking...

I wanted to forestall any accusations of underhandedness that would undermine the use of the power, like I explained.

I can't see how accusations undermine the use of the power, but the person wielding it and those who it may be used on, perhaps.

I clearly said 'I have made my decision and sent it off' and then explained why. I'm confident of my reads and I've explained why good will likely come of this regardless of who I've chosen. I'm going to hold off on giving my reads publicly, as that would give scum too much information about my likely picks. I hope you all find this understandable.

It is understandable, and likely obvious. But you know, nothing hurts giving reads. Just that. Two people, out of a variable audience. How can people discern their reads just like that? Deriving from such, your reads are specific when you're talking about a general mass of people. Like, 14 people, really.

> When you said "die", that means by anyway possible? Lynch/Kill-styled action?
> Phase...if someone dies at night, the other dies at day. If at day, then at night. When in the phase does the death happen? At the start, or at the end of the phase?

[RangerCado]

Tiruin: The situation is rather similar to the one in the previous game and UI was my second scum pick. I was gonna let off Zrk Teporarily on the off chance he's town again. However if he persists with the same attitude, i'm going to see if i can atleast get it on someone who is scummy. My suspicions of him stand but i'll trust meta for the rest of this day and go from there.

NQT: IT DID GIVE LOVERS STATUS!!! I KNEW THERE WAS A CATCH!!!

My vote still stands on UI and i will only be able to post once more before lynch unless we get that extension. Ask me any questions that you think are needed and i'll get back to you in about 7-9 hours. for now, Lets see what these last few hours bring to the table. ciao!

[Toaster]

Good god that was a lot of words I missed over the weekend. I'll start catching up.

[Urist Imiknorris]

My vote still stands on UI and i will only be able to post once more before lynch unless we get that extension. Ask me any questions that you think are needed and i'll get back to you in about 7-9 hours. for now, Lets see what these last few hours bring to the table. ciao!

How about you answer me.

Extend for those who are busy.

[Hapah]

Good god that was a lot of words I missed over the weekend. I'll start catching up.

Amen, Extend sounds wonderful.

[Griffionday]

Gloating:

I LIED ABOUT THE STRINGS
There were totally strings

I have made my decision and sent it off. As some of you partially figured out, there was a catch. Two players get to talk in privacy just like I said, that much was true. But if one of them dies, the other dies in the next phase. This is a beautifully pro-town move. Let us consider the possible alignments of the folk I've targeted:

I would like to point out: not only was I completely correct about the strings, I was completely correct about what the strings are.  We can now start taking my word as law.  (Joke, but seriously I was DEAD on with my suspicion on the nature of the strings).

Ranger:

Tiruin: The situation is rather similar to the one in the previous game and UI was my second scum pick. I was gonna let off Zrk Teporarily on the off chance he's town again. However if he persists with the same attitude, i'm going to see if i can atleast get it on someone who is scummy. My suspicions of him stand but i'll trust meta for the rest of this day and go from there.

In my questions to Zrk2 I make my argument as to why voting based on meta is a really bad idea; could you clarify exactly why you wish to do that?

My vote still stands on UI and i will only be able to post once more before lynch unless we get that extension. Ask me any questions that you think are needed and i'll get back to you in about 7-9 hours. for now, Lets see what these last few hours bring to the table. ciao!

You know you can vote for the extension as well right?

NQT:

I clearly said 'I have made my decision and sent it off' and then explained why. I'm confident of my reads and I've explained why good will likely come of this regardless of who I've chosen. I'm going to hold off on giving my reads publicly, as that would give scum too much information about my likely picks. I hope you all find this understandable.

Hold off until when?  Because you are going to have to rejoin the game at some point.  Honestly I'd like your reads as well; Yeah it will weaken the Town-Town couple but you have to understand your actions could VERY easily be seen as scum trying to make their actions seem townie.

[TolyK]

I'd like to Extend as well, too many posts, too little time...
Another one of those bigun's, and I have 4 tests tomorrow(

[Toaster]

Totally yes please on extend.


Ford:

Do you see votes as a good way to pressure new players into learning? From your wording, this seems more like a lynch vote than a pressure vote.

Votes can serve multiple purposes.

That's a vague, unhelpful statement that doesn't really answer my question.

That's a very Zrk2 sort of answer. From other sources, I can infer that he's answering "yes".

Zrk2 usually tends to behave this way. He doesn't usually ask questions once he finds a target. From what I've seen, he seems to pick out the weakest player in the game and then attempt to intimidate them. (I don't believe this is actually intentional on his part. It's just a pattern)

Combined with his style of answering questions, that usually ends with him getting lynched.

So why are you defending him?


Tiruin:

It's interesting. Many people poking at lurking. Lurk lurk lurk, comprises most of what I read in some posts. Why do you people think lurking is an offense in DAY ONE? I mean, you can just log off, then bookmark the quicktopic link and/or view the thread whilst logged off. Do you people think Lurking = Laziness, or that lurking = lack of drive in scumhunting? Because classifying things as "LURKING" doesn't hold much water unless you back it up with the reasons behind it.

Hmm...

then bookmark the quicktopic link

Wouldn't you say the ones with the quicktopic link are scum?  Looks like you have your scumchat on the brain.
Tiruin.


NQT:

Scum hunting etc. will resume as per usual afterwards (though I am hardly the lurkiest of players by a longshot right now).

Deflection.

Re Chat:  Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of your motivations.  You need to work on your salesmanship- you come off as scummy in the way you present it, but I get the feeling it's more based on derp than genuine ill intent.  I'm not saying I think you're town- I'm saying I think you're a derp.


Griff:

Toaster:
The game is well out of RVS now, where have you been?

Ill-excusably absent.


More to come- this is what popped out at me on a quick run through.

[Griffionday]

Ranger:

Ranger:

Tiruin: The situation is rather similar to the one in the previous game and UI was my second scum pick. I was gonna let off Zrk Teporarily on the off chance he's town again. However if he persists with the same attitude, i'm going to see if i can atleast get it on someone who is scummy. My suspicions of him stand but i'll trust meta for the rest of this day and go from there.

In my questions to Zrk2 I make my argument as to why voting based on meta is a really bad idea; could you clarify exactly why you wish to do that?

Sorry about the confusion here, my argument is not anti-meta at all.  And truthfully upon further reflection meta arguments can be extremely useful.  However you seem to have just taken Ford's word that Zrk2's meta fits this, without either of them providing an example of what changes are likely when they're town.  It seems like you're allowing your vote to go with the wind, which is rather unhelpful and looks scummy.