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[Owlbread]

So the families of Mass Shooting victims shouldn't campaign for gun control. I fully agree.

Knee jerk politics, very unpleasant indeed. After the Dunblane shooting in the UK all "high caliber" handguns were banned completely, but then when Labour were elected the same year they banned all .22 pistols just for the hell of it, meaning our Olympic team has to practise in the Isle of Man or Switzerland or something. It's not like they'd consider the measures very carefully and determine that the guns should be kept on-site at select ranges to allow people to practise if they want to get into competitive shooting, no, they just decided to ban it all. Very unwise.

I fear the same sort of thing will happen in the USA in the distant future, though Australia hasn't really got much more to take away. At least you still have handguns I suppose.

[Max White]

I would actually prefer a ban on hand guns actually. I mean I feel sorry about it, because they actually can be used for legitimate sport, but peoples safety goes before sporting. Machine guns I have no such sympathy for, they are not used in any sort of real sport or hunting, just red necks shooting at cars and their neighbors.

I also agree that the victims of gun violence are not good advocates for gun safety. Mostly all they have to offer is a sad story to pull the heart strings, with no solid reasoning. This does not mean solid reasoning does not exist.

Although you seem to be missing the point that guns hurt more people than they help. Significantly more people. The argument that they lower crime is a blatant lie. Also, while a world without depression is idea, you should try to be realistic for once. Guns are easier to remove than mental illness, and we know that exposure to a fire arm significantly increases the rate of suicide.

[Owlbread]

I would actually prefer a ban on hand guns actually. I mean I feel sorry about it, because they actually can be used for legitimate sport, but peoples safety goes before sporting. Machine guns I have no such sympathy for, they are not used in any sort of real sport or hunting, just red necks shooting at cars and their neighbors.

But firing machine guns can be very fun indeed. I find it snobbish to dismiss it as a "red neck" activity. Who is one man to decide what is "real sport" and what isn't? I absolutely loathe hunting and consider hunters themselves to be walking moral conundrums, but I'm not sure if I have the right to tell you if that's a sport or not. Do you feel though that the guns should be removed completely from the country, or could the handguns be kept at special sites like ranges to allow anyone to have fun with the guns if they really want to under controlled circumstances? Same goes for other guns that would be subject to a ban. That way competitive shooting can still develop as a sport, people can still have fun and there wouldn't actually be any guns in peoples' houses beyond those that are owned illegally (of which there are many).

Furthermore, when you referred to machine guns being used only by red necks shooting at cars and their neighbours, very few Americans have access to fully automatic weapons due to the sheer expense and legal wrangling you'd have to go through, let alone working class, rural Americans (the people you describe as red necks). Indeed, most of the shootings that have been carried out recently have involved semi automatics. It's a common misconception.

[Reudh]

Keep fucking dreaming, dole-bludging whale fucker.

That's excessive. Get out of my thread.

[Max White]

But firing machine guns can be very fun indeed. I find it snobbish to dismiss it as a "red neck" activity.

Furthermore, when you referred to machine guns being used only by red necks shooting at cars and their neighbours, very few Americans have access to fully automatic weapons due to the sheer expense and legal wrangling you'd have to go through, let alone working class, rural Americans (the people you describe as red necks). Indeed, most of the shootings that have been carried out recently have involved semi automatics. It's a common misconception.

Do you mean to imply that fun is legitimate grounds to legalize something?
I would describe anybody who has ever nodded their head while shouting 'YEEEEAAAA!!!' while on a constant rate of fire as a red neck, regardless of income.

Shooting is an act of patience and self control. Unless you are in a war... Are we talking about a war?

[Owlbread]

Do you mean to imply that fun is legitimate grounds to legalize something?
I would describe anybody who has ever nodded their head while shouting 'YEEEEAAAA!!!' while on a constant rate of fire as a red neck, regardless of income.

Shooting is an act of patience and self control. Unless you are in a war... Are we talking about a war?

Yes, I think if something is fun then that does provide ground for legalisation. Obviously that doesn't mean murder should be legalised because it's enjoyable, but if you aren't going to harm someone then there isn't really a problem.

With respect to the comment about guys nodding their heads and such, that is your snobbery, my good sir. Something that shouldn't enter the world of legislation. And, again, who are you to define what "shooting" is? Can't you define fishing or similar in the same way? Who is a "real gamer" and who isn't? It's not your place to decide how people should play with their toys, and that's how I see guns. Expensive, fairly dangerous recreational tools. Like a sports car.

[Max White]

Well if you see shooting as something different that what ever, I guess?
Perhaps I was bought up in a slightly snobbish shooting crowd? When ever anybody got trigger happy they would get called off the range for the rest of the day, and it promoted an attitude that every single shot was the most serious thing in your life at that moment, and must be taken with the greatest of care. Are other clubs not like this?

[Owlbread]

Well if you see shooting as something different that what ever, I guess?
Perhaps I was bought up in a slightly snobbish shooting crowd? When ever anybody got trigger happy they would get called off the range for the rest of the day, and it promoted an attitude that every single shot was the most serious thing in your life at that moment, and must be taken with the greatest of care. Are other clubs not like this?

Many clubs are, that doesn't mean that their standard should be the only standard. Play with your toy however you want, it's not my place or your place to decide that for other people.

[Max White]

But can you really call guns 'toys to be played with'?
People use these for killing other people, be it crime, self defense or war. They are deadly things by their very design. The idea of just doing as you please just seems like it is begging for an accident.

[Owlbread]

But can you really call guns 'toys to be played with'?
People use these for killing other people, be it crime, self defense or war. They are deadly things by their very design. The idea of just doing as you please just seems like it is begging for an accident.

They are toys to be played with in the same way that expensive sports cars are toys to be played with. You just have to play with them very, very carefully. Indeed, something being able to kill a person doesn't mean it "isn't a toy", that's just something we tell young children so they'll behave themselves when they use it. The key is that killing things is not the only purpose of a gun, though it is the most common purpose by far.

[Max White]

Well, it is getting late, and by late I mean early, so as some final words.
Fun is fun, but if people are getting hurt then you can't compromise others safety for your own hobby. Guns hurt people, and while I fully admit that removing all guns would not stop all violent crimes, I believe we are still at a point were limiting access to certain kinds of guns and limiting who can access guns will still provide a positive result.
There is a point where even though there are still shootings, making guns less available will not help the situation due to black market fire arms and other weapons, and that point is where sportsmen and hunters should be allowed to enjoy one of the most relaxing sports I have ever enjoyed, but we aren't there yet.
Where that point lies? Well it will take some effort to figure out, but looking across the sea to other countries, we can do better.

[GlyphGryph]

Also, he was advocating playing with them responsibly - the question was whether you'd be okay with banning individual ownership, but allowing them to be maintained by ranges so they could be used only uder limited circumstances.

And yes, "people enjoy it" is a perfectly legitimate reason to legalize even risky and deadly past times. That's the reason people are allowed to own pools, after all. Obviously, if there's a responsible and irresponsible way to handle the tool, society might have reason to make laws that promote responsibility (again, much like there are regulations about pools in most places, and guns for obvious reasons would have significantly more), but I'm a firm, but I don't think outlawing it outright should be the goto position, ever.

Rather, it should only ever be reached if the situation has been examined, and it's been decided that there's no responsible way to handle the problem.

[Blargityblarg]

To be honest, I think kingfisher and I, at least, were sorta talking past each other; I'm not particularly for further gun control, what we have works fairly well. I don't feel it'd be a huge tragedy if guns were outright banned in Australia, but I don't feel it's necessary either. I'd actually be okay with lesser regulation on things like hunting shotguns and bolt-action rifles, because they have a clear use for sport and hunting, and (relatively) limited mass lethality when it comes to people. Hell, even revolvers'd be alright, perhaps with a stricter check, but semiautomatic and automatic weapons simply aren't justified for the amount of death they can and do deal if and when a nutjob gets their hands on one.

The argument of frightening off or shooting a burglar in your house doesn't really gel with responsible gun ownership; current laws are, what, unloaded gun kept in one safe, ammo in another, in a different room? How are you gonna get your gun loaded and ready in that short a period of time? You'd be better off with a cricket bat or a machete.

Also, since when do burglars burgle houses when there are people there? It's much preferred, as I understand it, to go for a house where everybody's out at work or somesuch.

[Scelly9]

People fuck up. That's why there's always those "Home Invasion Gone Wrong" stories.

[Reudh]

I stated earlier in the thread (<10 pages) that I would like no gun debate. What we have in most of Australasia works just fine and needs no changing. It causes too much strife to argue, that otherwise level headed Bay12ers turn into venom spitting furies.