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[Max White]

Oh! So others factors were at work! Just like gun violence! You're not getting the point are you?

Let's put it in baby-talk, since it appears you can't read.

Criminals bad people. Where criminals come from? Bad houses. Bad parents. Drugs, abuse. Go to crime to pay for self. Shoot people. Criminal get gun despite law. Criminal no follow law. Criminal smuggle. Criminal grow drugs. Cut out early criminal source, no criminal.

Yes, I know how your gun porn starved mind works, but sadly global trends form a wide enough sample study to account for all sorts of factors. A single case study won't help like you provide won't help, but global statistics are pretty fucking accurate.
Fact of the matter is that the chances of shooting a loved one doesn't change no matter how you handle criminals, but it does help when you have stricter gun laws.

[kingfisher1112]

(flaming removed)

[Owlbread]

I'm very much in favour of people being able to use virtually any gun under the sun for personal amusement under controlled circumstances, though I'm not sure if the whole "shoot them criminals stone dead" argument works. Generally the law is so contrary in that I would actually be better killing a 16 year old kid who's trying to steal my prized possessions than just wounding him; simply because of the legal woes that would follow. That's an ugly situation indeed.

Though I am unsure about Australia (it is probably even more restrictive) attacking a burglar in the UK is a very dangerous activity, so much so that you're actually better letting your stuff get stolen then calling the police who will then arse about and provide you with some kind of compensation. If a burglar came into my bedroom and I stabbed him in the leg with my Mosin Nagant bayonet I'd be charged with causing grievous bodily harm. God forbid I should try to knock him out with the rifle butt and accidentally kill him - that's manslaughter charges for me.

EDIT:

Why did you think that calling Max White a dole bludging whale fucker was a good idea, Kingfisher?

[Scoops Novel]

Have the thread locked, or be civil. It seems the arguments crossed the pacific, at least. What do you support exactly, kingfisher? If relevant, which party?

Oh fuck it. With that last comment, apologize or leave the fucking board.

[kingfisher1112]

Have the thread locked, or be civil. It seems the arguments crossed the pacific, at least. What do you support exactly, kingfisher? If relevant, which party?

Oh fuck it. With that last comment, apologize or leave the fucking board.

Oh, so Max can call me a gun fetishist but I can't say shit?

[Owlbread]

Oh, so Max can call me a gun fetishist but I can't say shit?

Even if it was inappropriate of him to call you a gun fetishist, that doesn't mean you should stoop to his level, or more accurately, go so far below it you're in the gutter.

[Max White]

There were far, far fewer gun accidents back in the days when guns were widespread. Y'know, kids bringing guns to school for hunting afterwards, gun safety courses in class. But no. You just don't want safe gun ownership, don't you? You want a society entirely dependant on police. It's not like cars, or knives, or swing sets, or vending machines, or anything else cause accidents. No, only guns cause accidents. It's not like police are an after reactant and that if you injure or kill a criminal in self defence you'll go to jail. Keep living in your dreamworld where police can detect crime with keyhole sattelites. Keep fucking dreaming, dole-bludging whale fucker.

Are... Are you fucking serious?
Yes, I do want a world where we rely on law enforcement to enforce the law. Although this "You just don't want safe gun ownership, don't you?" is a really good example of another strawman argument. I want safe gun ownership, but carrying guns on the street ISN'T safe gun ownership. Automatic and semiautomatic weapons aren't part of a safe gun owners arsenal. Keeping a loaded fire arm isn't safe.

It is not ok to kill criminals. If you are being mugged, and you choose to pull out your gun and shoot somebody rather than pull out your wallet and let them have it, you are an immoral person. Self defense is ok, but situations where guns only escalate violence so far outweigh times when it helps it is a joke.

Also, fewer gun accidents? Try adding a 'per capita' (Yes, I know how much you hate educating yourself, look it up) onto the end of that. You can't. I can't even remember the name for this fallacy, but it is pretty stupid.

[Owlbread]

Though I like to think of myself as something of a leftist, I am quite libertarian when it comes to personal freedoms like owning guns or legalising cannabis and so forth.

I think semiautomatic and automatic firearms are quite safe in the same way that any bolt action or single shot weapon is safe. Really, any "safe gun owner" can have any gun he wants. You just have to know what you're doing. Ideally you wouldn't carry them in the street of course, but having a fully automatic rifle at your house and using it to shoot targets or whatever is perfectly alright. I think you should even be able to (with copious restrictions) have something like an M60 or similar large belt-fed machine gun at your house. Copious restrictions (background checks, ultra secure storage etc) and expense are the key. The ideal situation would be that it would cost as much to own a brand new sports car or helicopter as it would to own something like a huge belt fed machine gun.

Obviously difficulties would appear in that it would be a bad idea to have guns like that in the suburbs or something in case bullets pass through targets and wood and cause damage to someone's property (or hit someone), but that isn't to say you couldn't have anything under the sun in a rural area.

[Scoops Novel]

Have the thread locked, or be civil. It seems the arguments crossed the pacific, at least. What do you support exactly, kingfisher? If relevant, which party?

Oh fuck it. With that last comment, apologize or leave the fucking board.

Oh, so Max can call me a gun fetishist but I can't say shit?

"Whale fucker" is a bit of a step up, wouldn't you say? Alright then, Max, apologize. Bloody well do it, Kingfisher.

[Max White]

I actually don't really care about that comment at all.
I mean I am willing to say sorry in the name of avoiding a thread lock, but I don't feel anybody is stepping on my toes.

[kingfisher1112]

There were far, far fewer gun accidents back in the days when guns were widespread. Y'know, kids bringing guns to school for hunting afterwards, gun safety courses in class. But no. You just don't want safe gun ownership, don't you? You want a society entirely dependant on police. It's not like cars, or knives, or swing sets, or vending machines, or anything else cause accidents. No, only guns cause accidents. It's not like police are an after reactant and that if you injure or kill a criminal in self defence you'll go to jail. Keep living in your dreamworld where police can detect crime with keyhole sattelites. Keep fucking dreaming, dole-bludging whale fucker.

Are... Are you fucking serious?
Yes, I do want a world where we rely on law enforcement to enforce the law. Although this "You just don't want safe gun ownership, don't you?" is a really good example of another strawman argument. I want safe gun ownership, but carrying guns on the street ISN'T safe gun ownership. Automatic and semiautomatic weapons aren't part of a safe gun owners arsenal. Keeping a loaded fire arm isn't safe.

It is not ok to kill criminals. If you are being mugged, and you choose to pull out your gun and shoot somebody rather than pull out your wallet and let them have it, you are an immoral person. Self defense is ok, but situations where guns only escalate violence so far outweigh times when it helps it is a joke.

Also, fewer gun accidents? Try adding a 'per capita' (Yes, I know how much you hate educating yourself, look it up) onto the end of that. You can't. I can't even remember the name for this fallacy, but it is pretty stupid.

So autos and semiautos suddenly have a killswitch that makes them so much more accident prone? Get real. Relying on police? You'll be dead in your bed. If there is one thing my mother told me about her job it is that police are after the crime. You're dead. No matter how many times you ring police. They can't be at your house in 2 minutes. They may not be there in an hour. Police have to prioritise. Unarmed guy in someone's house? Less priority. Guy with knife? Higher priority. They can't be everywhere, but you don't have to be. Obviously you have some sort of submission complex that just makes you want to be a victim and get terrorised by criminals. I don't care. They can get shot in the leg. If they bleed to death, so be it. If they run as soon as they see the gun? So be it. I ain't gonna chase em. I may not have to use the gun. The thing is Max, you're projecting. You think that if YOU had semi and fully autos you would unsafely stow them, keep them loaded, and shoot on sight. I wouldn't. Plenty wouldn't. Carrying a gun is a deterrent. If I have to shoot, so be it.

I actually don't really care about that comment at all.
I mean I am willing to say sorry in the name of avoiding a thread lock, but I don't feel anybody is stepping on my toes.

I would also be willing to agree to this. Just keep the low blows and insults out of it?

[Max White]

Dead in my bed? I've been doing pretty well so far. And pretty much everybody I know does the same and hasn't been killed.
If you haven't noticed, not many people get murdered here, and that is partly because of the strong gun laws we have. I feel very safe taking my chances that I'm not going to be one of the five or so murders we get per year.
This 'murdered in your bed!' bullshit is a fear tactic from a delusional mind. If you actually believe it, you are paranoid. If you don't and are just saying it to promote guns, you are a liar.
I don't fear criminals, but a world where everybody has a gun? Fucking terrifying. Partly because I might get shot, but also because I might accidently shoot somebody. But then again I guess I have some empathy and don't see killing as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. We have significantly more suicides than murders here. Suicides by law abiding people who might still be alive if better checks were in place.

If you have to shoot, it is because you are a paranoid lunatic. You are not going to get killed in your bed.

[Owlbread]

I think your views may change somewhat if you were actually burgled/threatened at home, Mr. White. You wouldn't accidentally shoot someone if you were a safe gun owner either.

As I said earlier though this whole "self defence" part can be a bit shaky. I see guns as recreational tools, nothing more nothing less.

[Max White]

And my views towards capital punishment might change if somebody I cared for was tortured, raped and murdered.
Perhaps letting the emotionally affected make the call isn't the best choice? There is a reason they make sure juries are impartial to the case.

[kingfisher1112]

Dead in my bed? I've been doing pretty well so far. And pretty much everybody I know does the same and hasn't been killed.
If you haven't noticed, not many people get murdered here, and that is partly because of the strong gun laws we have. I feel very safe taking my chances that I'm not going to be one of the five or so murders we get per year.
This 'murdered in your bed!' bullshit is a fear tactic from a delusional mind. If you actually believe it, you are paranoid. If you don't and are just saying it to promote guns, you are a liar.
I don't fear criminals, but a world where everybody has a gun? Fucking terrifying. Partly because I might get shot, but also because I might accidently shoot somebody. But then again I guess I have some empathy and don't see killing as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. We have significantly more suicides than murders here. Suicides by law abiding people who might still be alive if better checks were in place.

If you have to shoot, it is because you are a paranoid lunatic. You are not going to get killed in your bed.

I really don't care how small the chances are. No matter how small it still happens. You are woken. You are a victim. He has complete power over you. You can get killed in your bed. You can get kidnapped. He might harm your family. That's not a chance I'm going to take. Instead of taking away guns, take away the cause of suicides. I'll say it again. Take away the cause. Nobody will kill themselves with a gun if nobody wants to commit suicide. Guns do not cause suicide. The urge to commit suicide does. Most guns used in crime are smuggled or stolen. So get better security in gun shops. Most gun crimes are handguns, so don't even touch rifles because they are useless for discrete crime. If you're so intent on taking away freedom, then go after handguns. Few criminals are mad enough to use an AR-15 or M14 for crimes.

And my views towards capital punishment might change if somebody I cared for was tortured, raped and murdered.
Perhaps letting the emotionally affected make the call isn't the best choice? There is a reason they make sure juries are impartial to the case.

So the families of Mass Shooting victims shouldn't campaign for gun control. I fully agree.