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[kingfisher1112]

You are aware that holding people and giving them nothing to do, no way to feel productive, over a long period of time is a form of psychological torture, right? I'm pretty sure our treatment of boat people is breaking some of our conventions. Or at least PNG is breaking conventions and we are facilitating.

I would say these people have every right to protest their treatment. This 'You will take what you are given and be happy about it!' mentality is somewhat akin to fascism.

Sure they have the right, but seriously? Why would you? If I just. If I came from a warzone where every step could mean getting ventilated by a dickhead with an AK47, I'd be damn happy with my treatment. And even then you underestimate how they would feel. Hint: Absolutely shellshocked. They just came from a very debilitating environment. Why would they want to work? Hell, it'd be cruel to make em' work.

Probably lives in a shitty mud shack/nothing.

This... is frankly more than a little bit bigoted.

Yes, boat people came from luxurious apartments in Dubai. That's obviously why they are immigrating.

I agree with the part about there being nothing else to do. We can't get to the root cause, we can't  stop them entirely because of the difficulty of getting legislation for that, we can't let them in because potential health problems, ethnic shantytowns, and all sorts of trouble with the economy and healthcare. So camps are the only, tenuous, "solution" we have.

Allowing a reasonable legal alternative to get in would probably help greatly. A safer and cheaper alternative to people smuggling would probably put them out of business (think alcohol prohibition in the US).

But... Alcohol prohibition didn't work.

[MonkeyHead]

Thats the point he is making - banning something outright makes the problem worse when compared to some means of legally controlling it.

[alexandertnt]

Allowing a reasonable legal alternative to get in would probably help greatly. A safer and cheaper alternative to people smuggling would probably put them out of business (think alcohol prohibition in the US).

But... Alcohol prohibition didn't work.

Bingo.

[kingfisher1112]

Allowing a reasonable legal alternative to get in would probably help greatly. A safer and cheaper alternative to people smuggling would probably put them out of business (think alcohol prohibition in the US).

But... Alcohol prohibition didn't work.

Bingo.

Oh, sorry, that flew over my head. Not in my right mind today. Still, the same problem remains. How do you control the flow of immigrants? What happens to the rest of them that can' get in?

[Reudh]

I'm tempted to ask that this line of talk be stopped, but I must say:

why do we not process legitimate and legal asylum seekers the same way that the EU does?

7-14 days, each country in the area has X spots free, 'do you want to go here, here or here?'

of course, there's practically no countries around us for that, besides NZ and Indonesia, and I doubt Indonesia would agree to such a thing.

[Dutchling]

*cough*Lampadusa*cough*

[Sheb]

Yeah, things aren't that rosy here either.

[Dutchling]

It's bad in the Netherlands as well. Not exactly sure what happens but at least one Rus died in the camp due to neglect iirc.

[Jimmy]

I'm tempted to ask that this line of talk be stopped, but I must say:

why do we not process legitimate and legal asylum seekers the same way that the EU does?

7-14 days, each country in the area has X spots free, 'do you want to go here, here or here?'

of course, there's practically no countries around us for that, besides NZ and Indonesia, and I doubt Indonesia would agree to such a thing.

Define how you determine who is a legitimate and legal asylum seeker?

A person who presents to an Australian embassy and requests asylum, sure. A person who violates our nation's borders and enters in contravention of our laws has committed a crime, regardless of whether or not they are a refugee.

If you steal a car, that is theft. The police will arrest you. If it turns out you stole the car because you needed a way to get yourself or another to a hospital quickly to save their life, the police will most likely release you without charges. If you stole it because you preferred it to walking, you're gonna face criminal charges.

Saying you're a refugee isn't carte blanche for violating border law. If you want to avoid detention, enter through official channels. If you can't, accept the penalty for breaking the law until your claim is recognized as legitimate.

Also note that the options for refugee status persons are defined by the UN as: voluntary repatriation to the country of origin; local integration into the country of asylum; and resettlement to a third country. The PNG solution is legal.

[crazysheep]

Also note that the options for refugee status persons are defined by the UN as: voluntary repatriation to the country of origin; local integration into the country of asylum; and resettlement to a third country. The PNG solution is legal.

I think you've hit on the main problem with the current solution: while the PNG solution is legal, is it morally right?

[kingfisher1112]

Also note that the options for refugee status persons are defined by the UN as: voluntary repatriation to the country of origin; local integration into the country of asylum; and resettlement to a third country. The PNG solution is legal.

I think you've hit on the main problem with the current solution: while the PNG solution is legal, is it morally right?

Yes. It's a somewhat similar culture ( Potentially if they are from Indonesia/a pacific island nation. Also, is PNG Muslim or Christian? Becuase that might cause some friction.) It's a rapidly growing economy, and I believe we grant them funds and security. I think.

[alexandertnt]

*snip*

Just because its legal, doesnt make it right.

[Max White]

Sure they have the right, but seriously? Why would you? If I just. If I came from a warzone where every step could mean getting ventilated by a dickhead with an AK47, I'd be damn happy with my treatment. And even then you underestimate how they would feel. Hint: Absolutely shellshocked. They just came from a very debilitating environment. Why would they want to work? Hell, it'd be cruel to make em' work.

Providing engaging, rewarding activity != forcing somebody to work. There is a reason that every prison has access to books. Yes, we are treating our refugees worse than prisoners.
Also, it isn't really for me to say what the would or would not be ok with. I haven't had to flee my country for fear of my life. That is up to them, and there have been riots. It appears they want to get back to normal life, back to raising their kids in a safe environment and working for a better future.

[kingfisher1112]

Sure they have the right, but seriously? Why would you? If I just. If I came from a warzone where every step could mean getting ventilated by a dickhead with an AK47, I'd be damn happy with my treatment. And even then you underestimate how they would feel. Hint: Absolutely shellshocked. They just came from a very debilitating environment. Why would they want to work? Hell, it'd be cruel to make em' work.

Providing engaging, rewarding activity != forcing somebody to work. There is a reason that every prison has access to books. Yes, we are treating our refugees worse than prisoners.
Also, it isn't really for me to say what the would or would not be ok with. I haven't had to flee my country for fear of my life. That is up to them, and there have been riots. It appears they want to get back to normal life, back to raising their kids in a safe environment and working for a better future.

I don't really want rioters in this country. It isn't their right to riot, to commit a crime just after they come begging for help. Biting the hand that feeds you.

[Max White]

They sat down and put up with our mistreatment for years, they protested but nobody listened, and then when they have had enough you decide that is reason enough to throw them away...

Doing the minimal to keep these people alive does not justify abuse of human rights. If I was treated the way these people are, and nobody wanted to hear my peaceful protest, I would riot too!