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[Max White]

So being around rope, medicine, knives, and trains would do the exact same thing?

Yea, they really do. I mean all those things are sort of required for non-violent reasons, but they aren't the kind of objects you leave lying around somebody with suicidal tendencies. The temptation really does arise from opportunity.

[Reudh]

What Labor needs, is a firebrand like Keating. That'd win them easily. Crean looks like a promising candidate, but he'll never step up.

[Reelya]

Presumably the Israeli's had access to all those alternate suicide items, but suicide rates amongst the military fell by 40%, once they stopped allowing them to take the guns home for the weekends only. That's a significant enough decline in suicides to make the point, regardless of any semantics about other items "theoretically" being as dangerous as the guns.

Just not having the guns around unsupervised for 2 days a week dropped the entire suicide rate by 40%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117295436

Then, there's the statistics from after Martin Bryant's mass-murder:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/12/18/1353811/australia-gun-control-suicides/

On April 28, 1996, a gunman shot and killed 35 people in Port Arthur, Tasmania. In response, Australian Prime Minister John Howard — a close alley of President George W. Bush — oversaw the passage of sweeping new gun control legislation. Semiautomatic and automatic rifles and shotguns were banned, and a mandatory government buyback program was enacted to collect those weapons. The results, rounded up by the Washington Post’s Dylan Matthews and Slate’s Will Oremus, were striking:

[H]omicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

[Max White]

A shot to the head is seen as quick and painless, an ideal way to off oneself, where as knives are painful and messy, pills are unreliable, ropes are tortures and trains are public. The easier the method, the greater the temptation, and few methods are as ideal as guns.

[kingfisher1112]

Presumably the Israeli's had access to all those alternate suicide items, but suicide rates amongst the military fell by 40% once they stopped allowing them to take the guns home.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117295436

Primary thing there? The Military. They have one of the single highest stress jobs in the world. The Israeli military is insanely stressful, as the enemy could attack at any time. THey only have to lose once and a boatload of atrocious crimes will happen. That is almost to much to bear. I want to see something similar on the Swiss military.

[Reelya]

I linked the stats from after Port Arthur. That shows the same thing, but civilian not military.

Switzerland can't be compared because they stopped letting the homeowners keep bullets now.

http://www.aihw.gov.au/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6442458840

According to the ABS, the annual number of suicide deaths registered in Australia decreased
from 2,722 in 1997 to 1,799 in 2006. A decline was evident for both males and females
(Table 2.1).

^ that's a government document showing a decline of about 33% of the Australian suicide rates from the time the gun laws were tightened up. And population was growing at that stage, so the per-capita drop is higher.

http://www.nisu.flinders.edu.au/pubs/bulletin17/bull1703.html

The decline is even more notable, since the total suicide rate actually increased from 1994 - 1995, so it can't be really explained as "suicide was just falling by itself", unless you say that it just coincidentally started to fall after the gun ban (and the 65% drop in gun suicides is just coincidental to the overall suicide drop).

[Max White]

Primary thing there? The Military. They have one of the single highest stress jobs in the world. The Israeli military is insanely stressful, as the enemy could attack at any time. THey only have to lose once and a boatload of atrocious crimes will happen. That is almost to much to bear. I want to see something similar on the Swiss military.

So what you are saying is that people in really crappy situations with high stress shouldn't be allowed to take guns home because they might kill themselves.
You know that actually makes perfect fucking sense! I agree with you kingfisher, we need more gun control and monitoring of people in high risk positions! Perhaps as these weapons don't have much functionality for the public, introduce total bans? I mean I know you will agree it is worth the lives saved.

[Osmosis Jones]

What Labor needs, is a firebrand like Keating. That'd win them easily. Crean looks like a promising candidate, but he'll never step up.

Crean was party leader for a while back in the Howard days. Trust me; he doesn't have the charisma to swing the party. Plus, honestly, he's pretty well screwed after his role in Ruddgate.

Penny Wong would be an interesting choice; she's intelligent, articulate, and pretty well free from controversy.

Of course, electing a Chinese Malay lesbian may be a bit too progressive for the mainstream Aussie electorate :/

[Reudh]

Osmosis: I think you're right. No matter which way we look, Labor is screwed. Also, why don't YOU run? You've got charisma.

@ Everyone else:

Stop the gun debate derail. This is a POLITICS thread, not a GUN CONTROL thread. Got it?

[GlyphGryph]

Guns are just about killing. Death isn't an accident with a gun, it's their reason for being.

While Reelya's obviously off on a hate-guns trip with the obvious disconnect from reality... the point is still correct.

So being around rope, medicine, knives, and trains would do the exact same thing?

As someone with a history of bouts of depression, this is true. Deep bodies of water and high places too. But it's about degree. Suicide is a result of calculations made in the moment, and the tools on-hand are a part of those calculations. Guns are by far the most tempting of these options and were the hardest to resist considering, except maybe for high places. But the nice thing about high places is that they are not readily available, and you've got that moment on the ledge where it suddenly becomes very real. Pills, ropes, and guns all lack that moment, which is a big part of why they are so popular. But pills and ropes both have their own problems, as well -
Pills are great if you want to give yourself an out, since they often don't work. Ropes require time and effort and a place to hang them from that can support your weight - not as readily available as you might think, and time is the enemy of impulse suicides (which are the type where available tool matters most).

Guns, though... guns are quick. They are easy. They are reliable, and the aversion at the last moment is minimal. And you can't change your mind after you pull the trigger. I wouldn't find it surprising at all if banning guns led to a sharp decrease in suicides. I don't think you should be either - it's not a particularly surprising fact, if you have any understanding of suicidal impulses.

That said, I don't see it as a valid reason for limiting gun ownership. But I have very... unique views on things like suicide, so I doubt going into that would be productive.

Anyways, hopefully I'll get a chance to post something later specifically New Zealand related.

[Max White]

Penny Wong would be an interesting choice; she's intelligent, articulate, and pretty well free from controversy.

Of course, electing a Chinese Malay lesbian may be a bit too progressive for the mainstream Aussie electorate :/

Wong isn't the type for party leader, she is competent.
Not like that bitch Bishop... God I have disdain for her...

[Osmosis Jones]

Osmosis: I think you're right. No matter which way we look, Labor is screwed. Also, why don't YOU run? You've got charisma.

@ Everyone else:

Stop the gun debate derail. This is a POLITICS thread, not a GUN CONTROL thread. Got it?

Ha. Hahahahhaha. Hahahhahahahhahahahahah. No.

I wouldn't get tangled up with the Labor caucus for love nor money. Maybe I'll sign up for the Sex Party though; they at least sound like they know how to have fun.

Wong isn't the type for party leader, she is competent.
Not like that bitch Bishop... God I have disdain for her...

Amen to that.

[Reelya]

Guns are just about killing. Death isn't an accident with a gun, it's their reason for being.

While Reelya's obviously off on a hate-guns trip with the obvious disconnect from reality... the point is still correct.

This debate is about whether we need to legalize guns in Australia. There's nobody coming after me or anyone i know with a gun, so why would I want guns everywhere making me unsafe to the point that I'd need a gun? thus increasing my own chance of dying due to the gun in my house?

There's no disconnect from reality. Gun-free streets are the norm here.

[USEC_OFFICER]

Liberal (our conservative party; again, go figure)

It makes a bit of sense when you consider how close Classical Liberalism is with most conservative thinking. Though seeing as the Australian Liberal party was founded in 1945... yeah, no clue.

What I'm really trying to say is... posting to watch.

[Max White]

US liberal is for personal liberty.
AUS liberal is for corporate liberty.