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Author Topic: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"  (Read 8639 times)

LordBucket

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"People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« on: March 20, 2013, 09:18:59 pm »

There's a girl I occasionally tutor for math. She's grown up with people who tend to give her answers rather than teach her how to reach answers. But she's starting to get into math that the people who "help" her aren't able to do. Nothing complicated. The girl is like 10 years old. We're talking basic fractions and things. Two and two thirds divided by one third, for example. I got called in because nobody knew how to do that.

Now...I'm not claiming to be any math genius, but I am a "Person Who Understands Math." When I looked at two and two thirds divided by one third, what I "thought" in my head was "six seven eight. The answer is eight."

Now, immediately I'm guessing there are people who read that and think, "ok. Yeah, I see how you might do it that way. Maybe that's how I'd internalize it, maybe it isn't, but it makes sense, it's reasonable, it works, and however you internalize it doesn't really matter." And then there are people who read it and think "What are you talking about? Six seven eight? Where are you getting that?"

So, as a Person Who Understands Math, but doesn't really use it much and is years removed from any sort of formal setting...when asked to teach a 10 year old how to divide two and two thirds by a third...I admit that I had to sit down on my own for a few minutes and self-examine my thought process and formulate it into something I could explain in a way that didn't generate a "What are you talking about?" reaction.

It ended up becoming a two hour lesson trying to convey some fairly basic ideas.

I think that in public schools, math is generally taught by People Who Do Not Understand Math. People who have memorized processes, and simply teach those processes as The One And True Way. I kind of remember that from my own schooling. Regularly being asked to show my work, and having a difficult time doing so, because the work that they wanted me to show was stuff that I wasn't doing. If somebody asks you how many arms you have, you don't have to stop and count them one at a time. If somebody asks you to divide two by one half, it's a lot faster and easier to simply multiply two by two than it is to convert two into a fraction, give separate treatment to numerator and denominator, then convert the result back into an integer. There's no reason to go to all that effort.

One of the basic ideas I attempted to convey was that division and multiplication are the same thing done in reverse. Two times two is four, and four divided by two is two. A*B=C, therefore C/B=A and C/A=B. Some of us in this thread have the benefit of looking at this and perceiving it as completely obvious, because yeah...that's what those things are.  That is the relationship between multiplication and division. You can write out 2 2 4 on a piece of paper, and tap each number with a pencil, correctly saying either "2 times 2 is four" or "four divided by 2 is 2" depending on which direction you tap. You don't have to rearrange the numbers or write it two different ways. But this is not necessarily obvious to a 10 year old being taught math by People Who Do Not Understand Math. And apparently this is not only non-obvious, but a rather difficult concept.

Similarly, a great deal of time was spent trying to convey the idea that division and fractions are the same thing. Like...literally the same thing. "Three divided by four" and "three fourths" is the same thing. And even drawing it out on the paper, I was having to explain that literally the only difference is the angle of the line.

The was a foreign concept. This was something that not only had not been taught...it was apparently such a strange and new way of looking at it that it took a good 5 minutes of providing examples and demonstrating it...and then reinforcing it later on because it was apparently so unintuitive that she forgot that it worked this way. Now...this girl is not stupid. She is not handicapped. She's not a drooling idiot. She's simply been subjected to a school system and a method of learning math that is so...whatever it is...that this was a strange and new concept for her.

There are schoolteachers out there trying to teach math who are apparently teaching via such a rote method, with so little understanding of what's actually going on and why...that apparently these things are difficult. And these students learning via these methods...are doing the math. There are student dividing by fractions who don't understand that fractions and division are the same thing because the teachers don't understand this and would never be able to explain the idea. There's an awful foundation of memorized methods built upon memorized methods with no comprehension of how or why those methods work.

Over the course of my lesson with this girl, I continually used larger numbers and things that weren't even numbers to demonstrate that what the numbers are really doesn't matter so long as you understand the relationships. 2 divided by one third is the same as two times three. 2 divided by one fourth is the same as two times four. Two divided by one billionth is the same as two times a billion. Two divided by one over a smiley face is the same as two times a smiley face. 2 / 1/x = 2*x, and it doesn't matter what x is. This is not complicated...but I invite any of you to try to teach this to a ten year old learning math in a public school.

So continuing on, we were working on a particular problem where I asked the girl to multiply something like one and eight fourths by four. I was pointing the pencil at various numbers on the page and talking her through it. When doing that...I stopped...paused, and explained that there were a couple different ways to do it. When multiplying 1 and 8/4 by 4, it doesn't matter if you convert 1+8/4 to 12/4 then multiply, or if you multiply 1*4 and multiply 8/4*4 then add the two results, or if you look at the fact that "eight fourths" is the same as "eight divided by four" and therefore x divided by y times y is x and there's no need to actually do the math because you can simply cancel the fours out, or you can look at 8/4 and convert it to 2 and then simply multiply three by four...etc. There are a bunch of ways you can internalize the math...it doesn't matter. However...it appears that in these schools students are being taught one particular method, and to apply that one particular method in all cases, always, no matter what. You could hand them (1 + 1/1) * 2 and they would convert it to 2/1 * 2/1, write out a formal three step process of multiplying tops and bottoms then simplifying. Just because that's how they've been taught to do it.

I think that's a very unfortunate way to teach math.

So, that became a bit of a tangent, showing her different ways of doing the same problem, and that it doesn't matter how you do it so long as you understand what's going on. And during this process, during one of those methods, I asked her to multiply 8 by four. And it happens that 8*4 is not something she had memorized. Ok, yes...we were all supposed to memorize at least up to 12*12 and I had one teacher who insisted we memorize up to 25*25, but not all of us did. I'll raise my hand...I never did. There are a few I never memorized. It wasn't totally necessary. For example, I never memorized 8*9. But being a Person Who Understands Math who did memorize 9*9, I was generally able to convert 8*9 into 81-9 and do that in my head fast enough that the examiners couldn't tell the difference.

So, I asked the girl to multiply 8 by 4, and it wasn't something she had memorized. No big deal. So what's eight times two? "Sixteen" she says. No problem. Ok, what's 16 times two? Well, she had some trouble with that one, but eventually she did come to 32. So..."8 times 2 is 16 and 16 times 2 is 32, so what's 8 times 4?"

Silence.

"Ok, what's 8 plus 8?" 16. "What's 16 plus 16?" *thinks* ...32. "Ok, what's 8 times 4?"

Silence.

This became a 5 or 10 minute thing, trying to get her to understand that 8*4 = 8*2*2 = 16+16 = 8+8+8+8, etc. Apparently the concept that "multiplying x by y is the same as adding x, y times" was a strange and unfamiliar concept. x * 4 = x+x+x+x was not an idea that she understood. It was not intuitive, it required explaining, and even after demonstrating it several times, she was hesitant to apply it because in her mind...just because 2*2 = 2+2 and 2*3 = 2+2+2 and 2*4 = 2+2+2+2...didn't in her mind mean that 2*5 would equal 2+2+2+2+2.

These kids are learning fractions, learning algebra, learning math in general...without even a basic understand of basic arithmetic. And I would totally guess that of her classmates who did memorize 8*4=32, probably a lot of them would also not understand that 8*4 and 8+8+8+8 are the same thing, and would see that they both equal 32 as a complete coincidence of no importance and with no application in any other case.

So...this lesson did end up having a happy ending. After about two hours she'd gone from literally crying to doing her homework problems as fast as she could write, with a confused look on her face because she didn't understand why it was so easy. "Is that really all I have to do? Are these answers right?" Yep. That's totally correct. And yes, that's all you have to do.

But some people Do Not Understand Math. And some of those people are teaching math.

Putnam

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 09:20:28 pm »

In fact, many of those people are teaching math. It's very, very sad.

mainiac

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 09:42:16 pm »

People think that math is about making numbers do things.  They couldn't be more wrong.  Math is about understanding logical relationships.  Equalities play a big part in this (there is a reason why the era of logical reasoning started when Euclid made his first Axiom that if two things are equal to the same thing they are equal) but equalities are about more then making the numbers add up or multiply or whatever.  What's really important is understanding that things relate to each other and using that logic.  Your story has a wonderful ending indeed.  If you can teach someone to do math in two hours then you are giving them a fantastic gift in a breathtakingly short period of time.  Because that sort of thinking is the foundation of everything.

I'm a math major for college students and it's amazing how far people can get in math without figuring out how math really works.  I have calculus students who are barely understand what they are doing.  The sad thing is that when people can find the answer they don't want to learn anymore.  They will insist on viewing things through horse blinders to keep from getting confused by the wider world.

A big part of the problem is probably curriculums.  People need to learn to do a certain type of trick on command so there isn't a more holistic understanding.  But there is something more pervasive too.  I had this one student who was brilliant at math but didn't think so.  She was a bit sloppy but she thought so fast and in so many directions at once that I struggled to keep up with everything she said and I'm not exactly a slouch.  Despite being great she thought she was bad at math because she was using all these workarounds and tricks to get at the answer.  I was equally horrified and pleased, what she thought was an obstacle to her math was the very heart of math itself.  But how many teachers do you know who would actively encourage this behavior instead of insist that she learn to do math the right way?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Putnam

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2013, 09:48:08 pm »

Okay, let me get all of my hostility out of the way before I post any further in this topic:

Fuck curriculums.

mainiac

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 09:48:46 pm »

Yuuuuuuup
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Doomblade187

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 10:25:46 pm »

http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
Excuse me while I try to enjoy calculus class.

But seriously, that is a take on math that makes so much sense, and makes me want to find beauty and enjoyment in math. And i can't say I disagree with its take on the public school curriculum.
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LordBucket

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 10:50:39 pm »

Still reading the pdf, but so far it's entertaining. Related, here's a another story that comes to mind:

Richard Feynman vs the Abacus.

Loud Whispers

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2013, 10:59:14 pm »

http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
"There is no question that if the world had to be divided into
the “poetic dreamers” and the “rational thinkers” most people would place mathematiciansin the
latter category.
Nevertheless, the fact is that there is nothing as dreamy and poetic, nothing as radical,
subversive, and psychedelic, as mathematics. It is every bit as mind blowing as cosmology or
physics (mathematicians conceived of black holes long before astronomers actually found any),
and allows more freedom of expression than poetry, art, or music (which depend heavily on
properties of the physical universe). Mathematics is the purest of the arts, as well as the most
misunderstood."
Hey now, mathematics is the application of an abstract concept - numbers, into something mimicking of the art of reality. Poetry and art can go beyond logical limitations as long as the concepts are defined. Science is not at all "just" measurements and practicals, the theoretical juice is mostly mathematics.
Overall though it's looking good.

Skyrunner

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 11:00:03 pm »

This math stuff is even sadder where I live. :(
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GlyphGryph

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 11:04:38 pm »

This thread made me go back some more and watch vihart again somehow.

Why must I fall in love with a voice on the internet.

I could easily spend the night watching math videos now. :(
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Vattic

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 11:06:31 pm »

I had a similar situation with my little sister a couple of years back. The maths homework had gotten more complicated than my parents were conformable with so I was asked to help. Almost all the same things came up with her that you mention. Funny thing is that I've never considered myself as any good at maths. A school I attended got shut down because of how awful it was and it left me very behind in general. Moving to a better school and seeing how far behind I was dented my confidence and I never really caught up. I'm not sure why I caught up in most of the other subjects. It's only since I left education that it stopped seeming so daunting and I realised I could do more than I thought. Would really like to start again and get a better grasp, but I don't know where to start at my age.
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TherosPherae

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 11:16:06 pm »

Oh, this topic. I like this topic. So allow me to offer my take on it.

I, like many other kids, was put through the same rote math classes as everyone else - this "means" this, this is a law, et cetera. However, I was a bit of an odd child. Once, in the sixth grade, we were covering basic geometry - hexagons and squares and things like that. We were told to draw a hexagon. I was lazy, and I also knew that a hexagon was a shape with six sides. So instead of doing your standard "all six sides are equal with equal angles between sides" hexagon, I drew a top hat thing. I later had to go ask the teacher why this was graded as incorrect - after all, my top hat thing had exactly 6 sides, and that's what hexagons are, right? In the same class, I once got in trouble for using "donut" as a variable - the poor grader thought it was a zero. (That one was probably more my fault than theirs. :P) And after the latest graded math test would come around, everyone would sit there griping about story problems. I never understood how story problems were so difficult - I just poked around at them with the tools I had until out came an answer that made sense. How could it be so hard when analysis with the tools I was given was so easy?

The answer lies in how - similar to Lockhart's Lament - mathematics is treated. To me, a summation symbol, an integral, a derivation - these are not "laws" or "definitions", they're tools. I treat them like a painter treats a brush - I can use them to make areas, swirling monstrosities, or whatever I damn well please. I don't use them simply for the sake of filling out equations, or for exercise's sake. I try to use them in all sorts of ways to see what sort of weird things I can come up with, and figure out how they're really used. This treatment of functions and formulae has left many a fellow student simply stunned - I could solve problems that they couldn't think of solutions to, because I poked and pried and, with the tools I had been given, eventually found an answer.

However, I don't necessarily agree that education of mathematics as an art should be entirely about the self-discovery of the tools of mathematics. To use the painter analogy again, there are many great painters who paint with naught but their fingers or sticks, and do so beautifully. But there are also many painters who prefer the handle of a well-crafted brush, and don't necessarily have the knack for making their own.

I do a little bit of tutoring to supplement my learning - after all, there's that old idiom about how you don't really know a subject until you can teach it. And it's just amazing to me how very little people understand about the tools they're given - myself included. I've seen someone else - after a bit of explanation, usually including a touch of back-of-the-napkin geometry - come up with explanations for problems I never could. Because they had been shown how to use the tool they'd been given, which I still (hilariously) didn't know quite as well as I thought I did. It was sort of like (because I like the painter analogy) being shown that you can paint with the back end of a paintbrush, and that the lines are narrower than even the most precise application of the "normal" brush end.

Of course, if you tried painting with the back end of a brush in school, you'd start to get some very funny looks indeed, and probably even a strict reprimand from the teacher. Much like my attempt to use a "method" we hadn't yet "learned" in the seventh grade on a test.

So in conclusion, I'm still learning the elegance of mathematics - I'm probably still nowhere near Vector-tier, but the current system for learning it is most definitely a piece of shit. Children aren't being taught how to analyze or even exercising their ability to think - they're being taught to follow the path they're given, and, well, God help you if you ever run into something that's not on the path.
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Boea

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 11:31:53 pm »

I guess this also follows from the problem of low literacy rates even out of college. :y
But this is about the maths, I'm pretty doubtful of myself, could there be a math thread? Or, potentially list of people willing to be pmed about maths?
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PanH

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Re: "People Who Understand Math" and "How Math is Taught"
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2013, 12:02:23 am »


I guess it's part of the education issue nowadays. Though, I don't think mathematimcs is the only problem.
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