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[Knight Otu]

"Let's try to sort this through chronologically...
Of the ship memories, the fleet one is obviously the first, being the field test. Then either the burning world or embedded globe, followed by the other. Then the cheering keyboard, then the empty void.
The individual memories are trickier, since they're likely from different individuals, but it should start with the drifting helmet, and indeterminate order of the syringe zeppelin, the nerve node, and the metal bench, finally going into the hiding face.

Hang on... during the embedded globe memory, the ghost ship was feeling elated at destroying an Altered ship. The feeling of kinship and sadness from the field test then aren't likely to be for the Altered. Either the emotions are what the ship thought at the time, and at the time it was indoctrinated as 'save humanity, kill Altered'. Or they're what the ship feels now, and it is still elated that it destroyed that Altered ship. A feeling of 'An enemy destroyed' in the embedded globe. Being told that 'there were humans on the planets, perhaps there are still humans on the planet as well, but they're being killed, dying, and we need to kill the enemy' would explain the feelings of kinship and sadness.

Okay, strike the field test and embedded globe, strike the empty void as secondary. Strike the drifting helmet as reinforcing the view of the Altered as enemies, Strike the metal bench as reinforcing the... preferable world view. Leaves burning world, keyboard, syringe zeppelin, nerve node, and hiding face....

You know, I've known a guy with a dog, who didn't treat the dog very well. The dog got yelled at a lot, for the least of things, sent out of sight, got less  food than was probably good, and was generally treated as a thing... and while the dog always liked to meet other people, get a few scraps off them... the dog still loved its master dearly, would be sad if left alone by him for a while..."

[Nikitian]

Whoa. I see.
Well, now that theory of yours seems much more believable. All the more I have to put effort into searching for an alternative explanation - if only to check that there aren't any other worth of notice.

About the dog - I would suggest considering two things. Firstly, are there any other examples of the dog's master being mean to it, other than the keyboard memory? Secondly, but - is there really a contradiction in the dog story? Sure the master is loved and everyone else hated, but does that mean that the master is supposed to treat the dog nicely?.. I am not sure; perhaps it is just me not taking symmetry in relations for granted.
Remember the nerve and the syringe memories. What was the general attitude towards the UWM and VonNost? Was there any hint of disappointment, of feeling mistreated and underappreciated?

[Knight Otu]

"Yeah, not all dogs would react like that particular dog, it was just an example that mistreatment doesn't necessarily mean the victim isn't still happy, especially a highly... conditioned mind like the ghost ship. Okay, trying to recall (reread) the memories a bit more, striking the field test may have been premature. Now that I think about it there was some emotion about the Altered being... right or familiar in some way, but that may have as well been about them being in the right position to strike them, and the ship was elated afterwards as well besides the sadness, but now I'm pretty sure the ship also knew about humans on the planet. Also, the ghost ship wasn't as unified then as it was in the later memories. Maybe the hiding face memory came later... oh forge, another bad thought. One of the individuals, the one of the hiding face, could think it is an Altered, infected somehow, further spurred by the keyboard memory... but does that work into a loop or paradox?

What else, the syringe zeppelin... the memory was pretty much devoid of real emotion, the ones induced at the start, and the feeling at the end of... being one and alone as a mass... I don't think there's a problem in that one. The nerve node didn't seem to have any problematic elements from what I recall, there was that bit with losing a bit of the individual losing a piece of themselves to the One. The hiding face, you're a better judge for that one as I wasn't in it..."

((

The Hard memory part of the team waits and watches as the other ships open fire and white dots silently bloom on the surface below. The ship seems to be waiting for something, maybe a signal from some unseen coordinator, to open fire. As they wait, they feel something rather odd. A pull, as it were, an attraction, to the altered down below. Something in them seems...right, or at least familiar. The feeling vanishes a moment later, but it was odd none the less.

The memory reforms and the awaited call comes. You're not sure how you know it came, but you know. And there is a familiar feeling to it. You're not sure if it's familiar to the ship or to you; such things tend to blend in these memories. The ship turns it's attention to the surface of the planet far below and begins to concentrate; to form spears of matter and energy so dense and potent that they could tear a hole straight down to the planet's core. That is, if they weren't designed to detonate on impact.

As the spears impact and and the ship feels the altered annihilated by the billions, a tremendous mix of feelings fill it. It's components are elated by their success, and by the praise now filtering in from the unseen, unheard supervisor who they somehow know exists and is happy. But they also feel a tinge of sadness, but you can't tell why.

))

[Parisbre56]

((May I make a suggestion to speed things up? Perhaps it would be better if you made a list and started removing memories that you're certain that they must stay?

Good thing piecewise hasn't given you a time limit or an army of horrible black blobs after you. ))

[Caellath]

((I'm back after getting my last test out of the way and managing to avoid failing. Yey. I'll read what I missed while I was away.))

[Nikitian]

I always thought that the familiarity in the field test memory came from the soldier memories of previous lives, as demonstrated by the helmet memory. The same "face the Altered, receive the order to blast them away, do it" routine - but I might have been wrong, though.

On the chronological order - you are very right when you pointed out that the Ghostship used to be less unified in its earlier days. Actually, now I think that the hiding face memory event took place over the years, centuries perhaps, though it might have culminated in a distinct event.

And the hiding face memory... Maurice paused for a moment In short, through pain and force the humans were reforged into the Ghostship. It appeared as something wondrous, something ascended, I might say, beyond humanity, perhaps. And something unified, very focused and completely integrated - a single new being, the One, I suppose.
While pain and forcedness, as well as spontaneity are qualities similar to how the Altered supposedly... happened, it is that form of unity and purposefulness that strikes me the most similar to the Altered hivemind, or whatever it was - the single will and single purpose driving them to their goal.

((And, duh, the second mission. But Maurice never got around to watching the mission replay, so I'll hope Jim or Milno will add something here. I did my best to keep the arguments untouched by meta. ))

[piecewise]

Whoa. I see.
Well, now that theory of yours seems much more believable. All the more I have to put effort into searching for an alternative explanation - if only to check that there aren't any other worth of notice.

About the dog - I would suggest considering two things. Firstly, are there any other examples of the dog's master being mean to it, other than the keyboard memory? Secondly, but - is there really a contradiction in the dog story? Sure the master is loved and everyone else hated, but does that mean that the master is supposed to treat the dog nicely?.. I am not sure; perhaps it is just me not taking symmetry in relations for granted.
Remember the nerve and the syringe memories. What was the general attitude towards the UWM and VonNost? Was there any hint of disappointment, of feeling mistreated and underappreciated?

There was nothing but good feelings toward the UWM. Even in the keyboard memory the ship didn't seem hurt or betrayed. It didn't seem anything; it took the realization of the crowd's feelings without a hint of anger or regret. VonNost is a strange feeling though. They never really thought about him and never seemed to feel anything towards him. Not love, not fear, nothing.

[Nikitian]

Tell the team what I remembered.

...That's about it.
What do you non-consciously ignore so thoroughly? Part of a mechanism? Part of your own self? Something you don't even know that exists, perhaps?.. VonNost is certainly a peculiar person.

((Uhhh, sleeep. Still, very interesting. We'll need to think some more. ))

[Knight Otu]

((May I make a suggestion to speed things up? Perhaps it would be better if you made a list and started removing memories that you're certain that they must stay?

((I thought that's what we're doing right now? But in list form:
1) Embedded globe - Ghost ship memory; destroying an Altered armada; we screwed up somehow and the ship concentrated on the memory.
2) Drifting helmet - Individual memory; Altered assaulting a base; the ship investigated while we were in, and the blobs appeared.
3) Ghostship fleet - Ghost ship memory; first field test, apparently. The ship destroys an Altered planet, possibly feels sad about that. The memory is practically assaulted.
4) Hiding face - Individual memory; the ultimate descent into a collective being
5) Syringe zeppelin - Individual memory; VonNost's experiments in deindividualization.
6) Nerve node - Individual memory; first steps towards an organic supercomputer.
7) Cheering keyboard - Ghost ship memory: The end of the Altered wars, the ship recognizing the hatred towards itself. Notably, the cheering stopped when we approached.
8)Empty void - Ghost ship memory; The ship contemplating on the past.
9)Metal bench -  Individual memory; The individual getting sworn into the UWM creed.
10)Burning world -  Ghost ship memory; The ship burns down a whole inhabited world.))

"Sounds like we can strike the syringe, node, and face, I guess. Though the ignorance of VonNost is strange. A blind spot of some kind? It seems like he would count as the creator the ship should be loyal to, he seemed to be very much in charge. Either way, by my accounting we're left with the fleet, keyboard, and burning world memories. If the ship didn't care about being hated (and as a computer, why should it, come to think), that leaves the field test and burning world, and with your theory regarding the familiarity, that does seem to leave the burning world memory..."

Edit - Vote for deleting the burning world memory. Pray that it's the right one. - still voting for it, but just to be on the safe side.

[Nikitian]

It could be, it could be... Hmmm.
Think of the familiarity in the field test memory. Have I felt it in any other memory? Was there a tinge of friendliness or otherwise in that familiarity?
((I would not strike that memory just yet, nor the three creation memories; I'll try to work them out, to one end or another. Also, I'll wait for more opinions and comments before voting. ))

[Knight Otu]

((I've struck my vote for now to be on the safe side, though I'm pretty sure we have to be unanimous for the vote to count anyway.))

[piecewise]

It could be, it could be... Hmmm.
Think of the familiarity in the field test memory. Have I felt it in any other memory? Was there a tinge of friendliness or otherwise in that familiarity?
((I would not strike that memory just yet, nor the three creation memories; I'll try to work them out, to one end or another. Also, I'll wait for more opinions and comments before voting. ))

The familiarity it feels is rather odd. It's not familiarity like seeing someone you know or being someplace you've been before. It's the familiarity you would expect from a pilot presented with a control scheme he's used to or a chemist being presented with a centrifuge or some other piece of equipment she knows. It's an odd feeling, to say the least, especially considering how it's centered around those beings down below.




So we have 1 for burning world.

4 more to go.

[Caellath]

Recall the feelings of the ship as it watched the human world burn by its own hands and before the deed. Did it ever hesitate, even for a moment? Did it feel bad afterwards?

((Back from a remarkably busy weekend and I have to admit the prospect of failing and messing up isn't pleasant.))

[SeriousConcentrate]

(Agreed. Since it feels like every choice is the wrong one - more or less - I'm just going to wait and bandwagon on the first memory to get two votes. )

[Pancaek]

"Hey guys, I don't suppose the 'paradox' the ship is hung up on is that it knows it's supposed to feel something towards the vosnost guy, but It can't remember what? Or am I making too much of that?"