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[Owlbread]

You chaps shouldn't underestimate the loyalty of many North Koreans to the regime. Don't just expect mass surrender, these people choose to live in a country that is irrational. They live irrational lives. I'm foreseeing the conclusion of this as being something more in line with Imperial Japan rather than the North Korean forces rolling over on their arses and dying.

[Fniff]

Don't just expect mass surrender, these people choose to live in a country that is irrational.

Ehhh, I wouldn't say choose... I mean, you could get out, but that's like saying "You could assassinate the glorious leader". It's really risky and dangerous.

[Owlbread]

Ehhh, I wouldn't say choose... I mean, you could get out, but that's like saying "You could assassinate the glorious leader". It's really risky and dangerous.

That hasn't stopped the thousands who have defected since 1990. Granted, some people just don't have it in them to do it - but people, young people, people who have the ability to escape were actually choosing to stay and die in the famine or serve in the army out of loyalty to the DPRK and the dear leader.

[Sir Finkus]

You chaps shouldn't underestimate the loyalty of many North Koreans to the regime. Don't just expect mass surrender, these people choose to live in a country that is irrational. They live irrational lives. I'm foreseeing the conclusion of this as being something more in line with Imperial Japan rather than the North Korean forces rolling over on their arses and dying.

You're right, but for the wrong reasons.

I doubt very many North Koreans would choose to live in North Korea if they had the choice and they knew what the rest of the world was like.

The reason people will resist is because they've been taught to hate hate the US and the west in general for their entire lives.  In the event of a war, the propaganda machine will go into full force.  The country will be portrayed as valiantly resisting imperialist aggression and subjugation.  I'd even expect batshit false-flag operations like poisoning food aid drops.

[Sheb]

Yeah, or because escaping is hard. If you don't happen to live there, even getting anywhere close to the border is hard.

[Owlbread]

Yeah, or because escaping is hard. If you don't happen to live there, even getting anywhere close to the border is hard.

But thousands have still done it. It is doable, very difficult but it can be done. Some people (although they most likely live near the border) actually go to work in China and live in North Korea to support their families.

You're right, but for the wrong reasons.

I doubt very many North Koreans would choose to live in North Korea if they had the choice and they knew what the rest of the world was like.

The reason people will resist is because they've been taught to hate hate the US and the west in general for their entire lives.  In the event of a war, the propaganda machine will go into full force.  The country will be portrayed as valiantly resisting imperialist aggression and subjugation.  I'd even expect batshit false-flag operations like poisoning food aid drops.

Those are actually the same reasons I was thinking of. I shouldn't have narrowed it all down to "being irrational" and "living in an irrational place", but I was trying to get at the batshit craziness of the DPRK that means expecting things like people just surrendering en masse is foolish.

[Sir Finkus]

Yeah, or because escaping is hard. If you don't happen to live there, even getting anywhere close to the border is hard.

Not to mention your entire family will be sent to a labor camp, or executed if they're lucky.

[Owlbread]

Not to mention your entire family will be sent to a labor camp, or executed if they're lucky.

And yet thousands still do it. Since 2006, well over 2000 refugees were escaping (i.e. complete defection, not just heading across the border to find work for your family) every year. In 2012 that dropped to 1,500-odd but that's in a time when everything is on high alert and national unity is raised. Remember folks, that's just referring to the ones that actually made it "home and dry" to South Korea. God knows how many escape each year and fail or end up in China or Thailand or wherever. There is also a far greater awareness of the outside world than many people seem to think. North Koreans were getting Chinese TV illegally back in the early 90s, so people have been aware of things (all the cars, all the shops, well fed people etc) for roughly 20 years.

According to one particular grassroots organization in the USA, there's around 300,000 North Korean refugees in China as we speak.

Of course, sometimes we need to step back and consider the horror of what we're actually discussing. Or at least I need to do that because I just stop noticing it. Imagine people finding ways to bribe guards with food or sex or drink or money all the way up to the border, then having to evade snipers (if not bribed) as you cross through an icy river to enter a country where, if you are a woman, you are going to (most certainly) be sold as a sex slave or if you are a man or woman with husband, live in fear until you are caught or make the titanic journey to Thailand or Mongolia to escape completely. As all this is going on your family has probably been imprisoned for life. When people go through all that just to escape it shows you how terrible that place is.

[Sheb]

Sure, but you can hardly said the one that stayed "choose" to stay. Give them an opportunity to go that doesn' tinvolve risking their and their families' live, and they'll go.

[Owlbread]

Sure, but you can hardly said the one that stayed "choose" to stay. Give them an opportunity to go that doesn' tinvolve risking their and their families' live, and they'll go.

I still maintain hundreds of thousands of North Koreans (I'm going on gut feeling now and theory, nothing official) choose to stay in the DPRK out of loyalty to the dear leader/supreme leader/whatever, loyalty to the DPRK and the fact that it is their home, come rain or shine.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Okay Owl, we get it, victims of a dictator are there on their own will. Noone who wants to leave could possibly still be there. Settled that, you expert, you.

Anyways. NK 'artillery' [the ones that aren't self propelled since they can't afford to fuel self-propelled artillery] is a joke and even if their cute Howitzers work, their positions are all known, thoroughly mapped out [Yes, the military know how maps work too!], recognized. The US military doesn't happen to be the most powerful just in title, they know how to plan a war that's been asking to happen for 50 years. NK is not the underdog people think it is.

It's a desperate, poor, starving country with a dictator who uses death camps to keep people from openly killing his pathetic soldiers. A real engagement with NK would end in a matter of days with Jung-Un being hung by his own people as soon as we shell the shit out of every piece of military equipment they've desperately clinged onto since the Cold War. Sorry. The people there are trapped and languish in desire for a real Korea. Don't doubt that.

[Owlbread]

Okay Owl, we get it, victims of a dictator are there on their own will. Noone who wants to leave could possibly still be there. Settled that, you expert, you.

Anyways. NK 'artillery' [the ones that aren't self propelled since they can't afford to fuel self-propelled artillery] is a joke and even if their cute Howitzers work, their positions are all known, ampped out, recognized. The US military doesn't happen to be the most powerful just in title, they know how to plan a war that's been asking to happen for 50 years. NK is not the underdog people think it is.

It's a desperate, poor, starving country with a dictator who uses death camps to keep people from openly killing his pathetic soldiers. A real engagement with NK would end in a matter of days with Jung-Un being hung by his own people as soon as we shell the shit out of every piece of military equipment they've desperately clinged onto since the Cold War. Sorry. The people there are trapped and languish in desire for real a real Korea. Don't doubt that.

Hey hey that's not fair, I didn't say that nobody who wants to leave could possibly still be there. I said that hundreds of thousands (a number I have pulled out of my ass but it feels right considering the population of the DPRK - hell it could even be more) decide to stay there because they want to. They would probably go on holiday or immigrate if you gave them the choice but during an invasion they wouldn't exactly lay down their arms at the sight of someone they've been told to hate every day of their lives since they were born. People are trapped there but I wouldn't throw myself into hyperbole by generalising all North Koreans as oppressed, trapped souls that only want a free, unified Korea. There's people there who most certainly do not ascribe to that view, and I reckon there's enough of them to destroy the image of North Koreans just dropping their guns or heading straight for Kim Jong-un, pitchfork in hand. Granted - I'm willing to be proved wrong on this. I even want to be proved wrong - do you think I want all those people to die in an inevitable guerilla war?

Indeed, consider the surprising number of instances where North Koreans leave the country regularly. Examples of this include North Korean logging camps in Russia and also universities in Pakistan. Security around these areas is looser than you would think but people still go back home and have careers and lives in the DPRK.

You also talk about the "underdog" thing - all I'm saying is the North Koreans would put up a tough fight. Tougher than the Iraqis did back in 2003 anyway. The way people were talking about it seemed as if the army would just keel over and die - that's a dangerous idea. You can bet the US and South Korean armed forces planning this shindig wouldn't be relying on that as much as we seem to be.

What I would suggest however is forming a (wait for it) Democratic Socialist People's Army well before any kind of invasion. I think that the hardliners would put up less of a fight if they could see their own countrymen fighting for a democratic North Korea. The power to change North Korea should be passed to the people of North Korea as soon as possible.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

you know what dprk stands for right?
juche is all about hereditarity, people get sent to concentration camps for being closely related to people who committed political crimes, the country is divided into hereditary castes based on their ancestors' condition in the beginning of the revolution. anyone who is loyal to the regime accepts as a dogma that the supreme leader of the country must be a descendant of the great leader, the eternal president. a system where they get to choose their leaders is out of the question, besides, democracy is what they already have right now...

[alexandertnt]

I would imagine a significant number of people in North Korea would likely put up a fight in any war situation. Given that an attack on the country (retaliatory or not) could be easily used to effectively validate the propaganda that the NK governmnet put out.

I would also not think that a war against North Korea would be a curb stomp battle. Even if they would almost certainly lose a war, they could probably put up quite a fight.

I would consider those who want to leave the country, but choose not to out of danger, not to be choosing "to stay in the country". They have chosen not to risk their lives and an undesired consequence of that would be remaining in the country - It was a result of a choice not the choice itself.

There is probably a considerable ammount of people who want to both stay (for patriotism, because the rest of the world is precieved as worse etc) and want to leave (given the number of people who attempt escape, there must be a non-insignificant number of people who believe the outside world is better, and thus dont believe the proaganda.)

Indeed, consider the surprising number of instances where North Koreans leave the country regularly

I am not sure about logging camps, but the ones that go to universities are likely part of some relatively powerful/wealthy family and their living conditions in NK for them are probably not that bad.

[Descan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaesong_Industrial_Region Has anyone else heard of this? o_o

It kind of blew my mind.