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[LordSlowpoke]

...so basically, once NK falls nobody will be willing to pick it up?

people's democratic republic of the twelve bays when

we're going to say the other ten were taken away by the imperialists ok

[Owlbread]

...so basically, once NK falls nobody will be willing to pick it up?

people's democratic republic of the twelve bays when

we're going to say the other ten were taken away by the imperialists ok

Actually, quite the opposite. Once the DPRK's government falls both the South Koreans and the Chinese will be in conflict over it. I don't mean warfare, I just mean... "conflict". In the modern sense, like Japan and the Chinese and the Taiwanese over the Senkakus.

[LordSlowpoke]

...so basically, once NK falls nobody will be willing to pick it up?

people's democratic republic of the twelve bays when

we're going to say the other ten were taken away by the imperialists ok

Actually, quite the opposite. Once the DPRK's government falls both the South Koreans and the Chinese will be in conflict over it. I don't mean warfare, I just mean... "conflict". In the modern sense, like Japan and the Chinese and the Taiwanese over the Senkakus.

you crush more dreams than saltybet does in a month, damned be your truthfulness

what should i send as a christmas gift for a stranger from the other side of the planet? i don't even know what they like

[misko27]

what should i send as a christmas gift for a stranger from the other side of the planet? i don't even know what they like

The entire repository of knowledge is easily available with a few clicks. You can figure it out.

Unfortunatley, unless someone intervenes when shit starts to fly out there, its gonna be a bloody mess with millions dead. Hell, even if China or US/UN/NATO flexes muscles, its a likley clusterfuck. My money is on it ending up some kind of military dictatorship, with a China approved puppet warlord at the helm.

I agree with you that this will end in terrible bloodshed no matter what happens. However I think the pressure from the South would be too great to have the Northern people come under Chinese/Communist/Juche control again. Though the Southerners are usually quite clear that they don't want these Northerners wrecking their beautiful economy with their mind numbing poverty, I think that will change when people see the truth.

Don't underestimate how bad this could be. When people start seeing what went on (and is going on now) in those camps it'll be like another Holocaust or the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge. Everyone all over the world will be saying "We didn't know it was this bad! How could this happen?" but the truth will be that we did know, we just didn't bother to do anything about it. It's not like the Kims had oil.

*cough*. Err, not following the Historic record unfortunately. Plus the Kims have Nukes. Most unstable countries don't have Nukes. That flips the equation tremendously. I hear a lot through fairly world-wide media about NK doing terrible terrible things, and I don't think anyone can claim to doubt it much. It's something that can't be dealt with by most nations, only the US, South Korea and China are in a position to actively alter events there.

Of those, bear in mind those smuggled things come from China. Most North Koreans will look to China as a place of prosperity (which is, of course, a view advanced by the North Korean government), and compared to where they are coming from, it is. The DMZ has acted effectively as a iron wall instead of a curtain, and South Korean Influence is limited to their geographic proximity. I mean the South Koreans won't stand for the regular North Korea, and the North Korean government is still there. Don't overestimate what outside forces can do.

I mean the US still doesn't stand for Cuba, and recently Cuba just shut down all private movie and video-games parlors. And they seem to be doing fine. Hell they're just flipping the bird at Florida, and there's not a damn thing the US can do.

[Owlbread]

*cough*. Err, not following the Historic record unfortunately. Plus the Kims have Nukes. Most unstable countries don't have Nukes. That flips the equation tremendously. I hear a lot through fairly world-wide media about NK doing terrible terrible things, and I don't think anyone can claim to doubt it much. It's something that can't be dealt with by most nations, only the US, South Korea and China are in a position to actively alter events there.

I think you misread me. The US, South Korea and China were all I was thinking of when I talked about us not "doing" anything, just like nobody really expected Ireland to do much about Nazi Germany. I was also thinking about the unification of East and West Germany specifically, so I think there is enough historical precedent. If there was no such precedent I wouldn't be talking about it like that.

Of those, bear in mind those smuggled things come from China. Most North Koreans will look to China as a place of prosperity (which is, of course, a view advanced by the North Korean government), and compared to where they are coming from, it is. The DMZ has acted effectively as a iron wall instead of a curtain, and South Korean Influence is limited to their geographic proximity. I mean the South Koreans won't stand for the regular North Korea, and the North Korean government is still there. Don't overestimate what outside forces can do.

You are ignoring the fact that the USA will be standing with South Korea, as well as the rest of NATO.

I mean the US still doesn't stand for Cuba, and recently Cuba just shut down all private movie and video-games parlors. And they seem to be doing fine. Hell they're just flipping the bird at Florida, and there's not a damn thing the US can do.

That is a very different situation altogether.

[Sheb]

NATO has no obligation to defend South Korea. We will side with them, sure, but actually sending in troops?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

NATO may not have a direct obligation, but the US does, and what the US does NATO inevitably follows.

[Max White]

I was under the impression that although SK isn't a member of NATO, it still has diplomatic ties that would entitle something...

I mean I sure hope that is the case, Australia is in the same boat.

[Loud Whispers]

This documentary by Channel 4 may be superficial in places but it is interesting in that it shows just how widespread the resistance is in North Korea against the state. I was particularly impressed by one woman literally shoving an Army Officer in the chest, calling him a "bastard" and asking him where his stars were because he was trying to stop her illegal bus service. The "bus" was little more than a pickup truck that people were climbing into but the state wasn't happy about it.

I was literally about to post this exact part. I'm surprised they weren't disappeared by the Nork government, this is good progress.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The Norks are hardly omnipotent. They get the reputation because they are one of the true few remaining totalitarian societies (about the closest competitor is Saudi Arabia, and even they are a far second), but North Korea is ripe with corruption, dissent, and simple ineptitude.

And while the border guards and such might be ruthless, if you're offering one enough money to feed his family well for the first time in as long as he can remember...

[Sheb]

NATO may not have a direct obligation, but the US does, and what the US does NATO inevitably follows.

*hum*Iraq*hum*

[MetalSlimeHunt]

NATO may not have a direct obligation, but the US does, and what the US does NATO inevitably follows.

*hum*Iraq*hum*

What about Iraq? Most of the NATO nations participated at one point or another. Mind you, Iraq wasn't exactly a big enough conflict to call down the full force of NATO to begin with.

[Sheb]

Stuff is the Iraq war, like an eventual defense of SK would not trigger Article 5 and NATO members may or may not answer the US's call to war. Some probably would (The UK) some may or may not (France, Germany). Most of the NATO members wouldn't even be able to get their troops over there in time anyway.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Whether it would be useful or not is hard to judge, and would depend greatly on the situation. While I've spoken before on how North Korea's supply lines being their Achilles heel, they are doctrinally focused upon being a nation of nesting egg fortresses that will hold out as long as possible.

So time will tell. Of course, it may be totally moot if the trends in the recent documentary are any indication.

[Owlbread]

I think basically everyone in the world would back the South on this one besides China and... I don't know really, I imagine the Russians would stay neutral, so you're really just looking at Vietnam or Cuba or Laos but I think they'd stay neutral too. South Korea and North Korea uniting is very, very different to a (comparatively) obscure middle-eastern rogue state needing police work. I predict there will be an enormous groundswell of support for South Korea in the same way that there was a huge groundswell in the West for West Germany when the wall came down.

Call me naive but I think that unlike Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan or whatever, I think this is one issue most countries would put their differences aside and rally behind one team, in this case the South. You'd have to be a special kind of bastard to support the Chinese here. I understand they hold the monopoly in terms of finance (they are the second superpower of the world after all) but I think even China would be going too far here.

In fact, here's a perspective. Maybe this will be the first real test of China's power in the modern world vs that of America, the first main "flashpoint" in a conflict that will heat up as the years go on. I know we've already had flashpoints but nothing on this scale; think "Cuban Missile Crisis" but just 100% hot air and no nukes.