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[Soulbourne]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48635.msg1062140#msg1062140

Procedurally generated spells basis!  That in hindsite and experience over past 2-3 years could definitely use some work.  However, having spells orchestrated and generated based on a basic "Effect" system like that allows for a wide range of randomized spells to generate.  This would also separate the spells themselves from an actual source.

In terms of a source, you could create a generation of spheres relevant to both spiritual beings(Demons, gods, giant warrior ant queens, whatever) that each one gets assigned, which has certain tag restrictions(You can't have this tag so can't have this effect.  Such as ants drawing power from a queen couldn't use ranged tag in spells they generate, and thus only had melee spells).  People who draw power from a source are limited in their "weaving" by that sources own limitations.  Divine magic in many fantasies are in such a way.  A "diety" casts any spell a cleric/whatever uses, and they funnel it.  Thus, only spells within the dieties realms can be done.

And then you could have others who are....renegades from the "gods"?  Who draw power from other sources.  Themselves, arcane gems, thee natural world, maybe even people who hunt and "Eat" artifacts for their power.  The easiest way to do this would be the use the same mechanics that generate religious entities a well.  Religions, orders, whatever get a name, and get a series of tags.  They're bound to one diety or a pantheon, they follow a non-outsider route, etc.  They can have sub castes that each generate their own set of restriction tags.  Like if it's a pantheon religion, they can be devoted to god X Y or Z, and thus have different spell tags available.

In my own terms, I think procedural generation of the "weave" IE, the control and using of the power should be a distant thing from the "Source", IE the origin of the power.  You can then generate sources during world gen, under similar terms to now and provide a varied and random series of restrictions that differs from world to world, and keeps a strict system while at the same time giving numerous possibilities.  Then have the weave generated after the  source, either during gameplay, or during world gen(Depending if you go for each source has spells X, Y, and Z to followers A, B, and C; or go for creation of spells through research and chance and varied spells from caster to caster).

[Deboche]

I don't know exactly what they're planning in terms of spells but my idea would be to not have anything in the way of fireballs, magic shield and so on.

Magic would be more along the lines of making effects happen in the world such as bountiful harvests, weather control and fertility for animals and people. There would be item enchantments for weapons and armor but also for other objects; individual amulets for luck, stamina, work efficiency or other things and enchantments on common objects such as making a statue with a calming influence to take away bad feelings from people in the room, a pickaxe that breaks rocks faster and so on.

Warriors could be blessed or cursed, consulting an oracle would tell of coming invasions or accidents, casting a spell for prosperity would make a certain metal or needed resource turn up. Potions could be made with different effects. A ward might be placed in a room that would make enemies more likely to skip it if they manage to get into your fortress.

Of course, since DF is a videogame it would not make sense to limit spells too much. Perhaps when faced with enemies, elven druids might make a ritual dance and an offering of honey and venison to a bear god and bears in the forest would turn up to help. A goblin warlock might bring a charm to be placed in a statue inside your fortress that would animate the statue and make it do his bidding. Someone might learn after long practice how to shapeshift or walk through walls. A dead dwarf could be chanelled to draw upon his abilities.

Sure enough, instead of saying elves are wiccans they get to perform these rituals and contact these deities, religions could be procedurally generated. Perhaps you could have some influence on what your people end up believing in by promoting a certain type of worship and that way influence what magic becomes available. I just think making magic work similarly to how it does in real life occultism would be more interesting than having a mage with a certain level of skill have a certain amount of mana(or draw from a source) and be able to cast ice wall or summon dragon

[Spyton]

Im just throwing it out there I would prefer there to be fireballs and Magic barriers and all the other more active magics as well as the more subtle magics. I mean we already have necromancers and thats pretty direct im sure many dwarves can attest to how direct a necromancer can be on his/her life....

On another note as far as religious deitys are concerned id also like them to be generateed to randomly choose if they even allow/help perform magics. Not every one of them should actively create healing lights, or magma storms. Spell spheres would of course be decided on what the gods are based upon.

Im for the whole mana vs the channeled method as far as magic, Mana is casting stuff as long as you have the energy to produce it, and channeled being able to create the magic as long as you have the time.

As far as spell range, id like the broadest possible rage of magics be available, anything from improving farm plot returns, to fire drakes, summons, enchanting armor, lightning,and what else you can think of. Of course this would be very time consuming to come up with massive amounts of spells. Id also like for players to decide the intensity of spells that they cast and being able to mix the spell properties, Theres Nothing quite like hitting enemies with electricity that turns their socks into Raging wolverines.

If your looking for ways to limit magic usage as to not make it overpowered, have certain creatures and materials be resistant to said magics, and put re use timers on such things like Casting a fireball makes spells unable to be cast for 5 game ticks, or what not.

Though this being what i would prefer to have, im not against the contract magic, and other systems to be inside of the game as well In fact i would really appreciate the diversity of them.

On top of all of this i would like a "switch" in world generation to be able to set wich magics were allowed if any at all. Of course mine would always be on max.   Sorry if this double posts as server connection timed out first time and it did not appear to be posted.

[Adrian]

I know it's arrogant to quote yourself, but

I'd prefer to see
-"Magic" as something only deities can preform and the mortals can only ask the deities for favors.
 -Deities only being able to influence things in their respective spheres.
-A deity's power being proportional to the amount of worship it receives from around the world.
 -This wouldn't have to end with deities. A vampire with a large enough cult following could gain special abilities as well.

or runic magic in any way, shape or form. Simply because it's dwarfy.

But the two are hardly mutually exclusive

On the subject of mana, if deities are not the source of "magic":

Consider mages being able to produce a quantified amount of magic through the spell casting labor. This would be used to fuel their spells.
One-off effects (like teleporting a gobin's spine two squares away) would require charging, and lasting effects (like a trout-rain) might require constant fueling.

I can definitely see a floor full of necromancers chanting away to keep their hordes animated.

Mana is a pool belonging to the caster, which is used up as spells are cast. I was describing an opposite: A pool which belongs to a spell and which needs to be full for it to function properly.
Also, there don't have to be numbers in-game. It could be a background calculation.

I was suggesting it more so we wouldn't be able to spam asteroids on sieges.
"You want boulder-rain? Sure, but unless you want the ceiling in the dining hall to collapse you'd better have enough talented mages."

And regarding the mechanisms of magic:

Consider magic as only being able to manipulate the properties of objects/materials, as opposed to the object itself. (by substituting, adding or removing tokens)
The tokens could be represented by glyphs/runes/whatever so to change the size of a creature you'd need to find/learn the glyph representing the BODY_SIZE token.

This would also make the amount of different spells nigh-infinite.

[Spy227X]

I'd like something that randomly gens some magic and we can mod in things for some magics to do or magics that are in all saves.

[NW_Kohaku]

Deboche: One of the problems with magic threads in general is that everyone wants to talk about how magic should "feel" all the time, which basically means they want it to be like the magic in their favorite fantasy novel, and the thread will turn into an argument about which fantasy novel has the best "feeling" magic system when they read it.  (Which is utterly irrelevant to DF, which is a game, not a novel.)

Likewise, threads that deal with individual spells are not helpful.  What DF needs is a unique and versatile magic system suggested, not a list of spells.  Especially since those spells are almost always going to be "fireball, lightning bolt, healing..." and other things that every fantasy RPG ever has in their magic system, and Toady probably doesn't need suggestions about.  It's the goals of the magic system that are in the greatest contention - what individual spells do is the (relatively) simple matter of achieving those goals, but you have to actually get people to agree on the goals of the magic system, and how you go about using it to get that to actually work.

It's for that reason that it's worth structuring your thread's title and opening post so as to preclude every random forumgoer and their hoard of pet kittens from suggestions of their favorite fantasy novel or what D&D spell they like most.  I recommend you retitle the thread (by editing your original post) to something like "Real-life religious magic systems in DF" or something similar to preclude the off-topic suggestions, and keep things to what your actual suggestion is about.


And while I'm already talking in this thread again, to keep things at least somewhat on topic, myself, I'd have to ask, Deboche, what your version of magic actually entails for the player trying to use it?

As in, how does the player get that sort of magic to work?

Do you just stockpile herbs, and so long as you have herbs to "buy" your spells, you can cast as much magic as you want per number of turns that the goblin shaman has to dance?

Remember, you need to answer for Fortress Mode (including future goblin tower/elven retreat/wizard tower modes) as well as Adventurer Mode, including some sort of "wizard start" as well as non-wizards.  Is it possible for players to get do-it-all characters who wear full plate, have an axe and shield, and cast magic at the same time with legendary combat and magic skills, or is there any reason you'd have to choose between melee specialization or magic specialization, and how is that enforced by the game?

It's worth pointing out that how you think a magic system should feel from some abstract view from before it gets implemented is almost never going to be what it actually is like when it's in the game: Consider caverns - they were originally suggested as places of mystery and wonder to explore, but as soon as you have actually seen one in the game, you've basically seen them all.  There's nothing wondrous about them to an experienced player, so don't think that you can make a magic system that fills players with awe, even if you randomize things.  Players will figure out the odds, and it will just be players angrily cursing the RNG rather than being in awe. 

What ultimately matters to the player is the following:

• "What problem does this solve?" - Magic is a means to an end.  It needs to do something you couldn't otherwise do, or do it better than other tools at your disposal to give it a purpose.  At the same time, it can't be better than some mundane tool in every scenario, or you make non-magic users obsolete.

• "Are the costs/risks worth bothering with magic?" - a corollary to the first question:
  
  If you are going to just make magic randomly explode in your face or something, and magic doesn't solve any problems you can't solve by mundane means, why bother taking the risk at all? Magic has to be worth the costs/risks of using it, or it's crap.
  

• "Is there any reason not to have magic?" - the inverse of the above:
  
  There's no reason for a player not to use magic as it stands right now, where you just have to find a slab and be literate to gain permanent free superpowers.  There's no drawback, no cost, no reason not to go out and collect 'em all.  If you are just a wizard, you're crippling yourself by not wearing full plate and having a shield.  If you're a pure, no-magic fighter, you're crippling yourself by not having free superpowers.  If there's no reason not to make all your dwarven military necromancers so that they can raise any goblin they kill or ally they lose as a zombie to fight with them as reinforcements, there's a serious gameplay quality issue.

• "How does the game enforce specific play-styles through its mechanics?" - If you want wizards to be the sort that carries around books filled with spells everywhere, you need to create a mechanic that forces them to carry their books around.  Elona, for example, has a mechanic where you have to read a spellbook to get "Spell Stock" in order to cast spells... but the amount of spell stock you get from reading a book goes down with each subsequent reading, and you can only read a book a limited number of times before they disintegrate, so you have to both be constantly hunting for replacement books in dungeons or shops (and the primary reason to join the mage's guild is to get access to a book seller that lets you order specific spells), as well as to carry your books with you, and read them as you start running low on stock, rather than just reading them all at the time you find/buy them.  (Because diminishing returns would mean it was a waste.)
  
  Otherwise, you have a game where you need to find a spellbook or slab once in adventure mode, then can just throw it away, because you never need to use it again.  Why should a wizard have a tower filled with books that they keep closely guarded when any random yahoo that's literate can pick up a slab and start reading?  Why wouldn't that just be at some royal library, where any loyal servant of the realm can start getting free superpowers?

• "Are you keeping in mind that how a magic system "feels" is dependent only upon how the mechanics change player behavior?" - In the case of your specific suggestion regarding recycling real-life religions, I have to ask, what do those real-life religions actually mean in-game?  If it doesn't change how people play the game, it's nothing but window-dressing.
  
  So, you want to have people read the I-Ching for magic?  OK, what does that mean they actually have to do?  Does that just mean that they have to carry some scrolls (and coins, if it's I-Ching) with them, and spend a few turns reading to get a spell each time?  So is it like having a set of spells "equipped" when you have a specified number of scrolls in your inventory? Can you just cast from any scroll you've previously found, so long as you can carry it with you?  Does this mean that "wizards" are just knights (As in, they have plate mail and shields as well as melee weapons because there's no reason not to) with heavier backpacks?

• "Will this be coded in a way that can remain flexible enough for modding?" - Keep in mind, the system of magic/religions has to be flexible enough to handle not just procedurally generated deities to worship, but also procedurally generated civilizations and even races that form those civilizations:
  
  

  Threetoe: Okay, this next question is from James, he asks 'Will you ever begin to include randomized main races, or will the player interactable races always be limited to token dwarves, elves, goblins and humans? And a smattering of chimera tribes' ... the animal people.
  Toady: Is that what he means by the smattering of ... I don't know how to say these words, is it chimera? Yeah, it must be the animal people. Unless you meant something else.
  Threetoe: Yeah, we could always just call the animal people something else, other than turtle man, we could make it some other name and still be a turtle man.
  Toady: I think it's always been in the plan to have randomized main races, it was up on the old dev pages, I don't remember if it made it anywhere on the new dev pages or not? I think it might actually be there. Maybe not. It would be the last one, because doing randomized civilizations is an extra step beyond randomized monsters. Because we've kind of been easing in, we have the forgotten beasts now, we've got the titans, those are randomized. We have some of the underworld creatures randomized and we wanted to ease in to having some of the regular kind of monsters in the woods and stuff, randomizing those with a few extra night creature entries at some point and then kind of ease in to having some randomized regular creatures and then finally adding in randomized civilization creatures. The problem with randomized civilization creatures is there needs to be a lot of exposition or you're just going to be completely confused about what's going on, but it would definitely be an option, I think there would be a slider or something for how strange you want your world to be because we definitely think having dwarves and elves and goblins is cool for a lot of people just to kind of understand what's going on without having to do a lot of extra reading.

  
  Hence, you can't just hard-code in a specific set of interactions, you need to think of ways to make each religious "school" of magic actually comply by the same system.

• "Does this system actually make sense for DF, and play to its strengths?" - A last-but-not-least...
  
  DF's strengths lie in its emergent behaviors that occur because basically every system in the game overlaps with one another, and can interfere with one another.
  
  This is done mostly through the fact that almost everything in the game relates to the spacial simulation, and players can manipulate the lay of the land.  Hence, fluid mechanics, flood gates, pumps, pressure plates, mechanisms, etc. can all be used to create incredibly complex systems for player-controlled systems because all these things are part of the spacial simulation that players can manipulate, even if only indirectly in the case of water. 
  
  Magic can't just be using lightning bolts for 5d6 hit points of damage - we don't even have hitpoints. It has to relate to some sort of system DF already has, and can't "keep its hands to itself", and only apply to things inside the magic system.  You need to make the system actually relate to other aspects of the game for choices in the magic system to have any meaning beyond which spells you want to cast.
  
  If you make magic resource-based (you have to grow herbs to cast magic, for example,) then you're relating magic to your ability to actually grow those herbs, which means something in fortress mode, since players who want to cast magic will therefore be encouraged to take extra measures to grow more of those herbs.  How will that force players to react?  (The Xenosynthesis suggestion I had came up as a spin-off of the more difficult farming thread for a reason - if you tie magic in to farming, and make farming more difficult, then you are suddenly forcing players to spend more time on their farms before they can get anything done with their spells, and cost-benefits may be measured in how much land, labor, and player time they are willing to spend on their farms, rather than doing something else.
  
  The only other things you can tie the magic system into to make emergent behavior possible are the spacial simulation itself (which might mean "geomancy" where you have to alter the terrain in a specific way to get specific spells), or else some as-yet-coming personality or relationship mechanics (which would be the reason for Contract Magic... you have to use relationships/personality mechanics to get your magic).
  

And yes, that's a lot to ask of someone, but... well, if we're going to make these magic threads actually produce something useful, then it has to be more than just what magic "feels like" and then inserting your favorite fantasy novel.  (Basically nobody ever suggests a game - everyone always hates every magic system they've ever seen in a game, and demands one that isn't practical for putting into a game that has to have Turing Complete rulesets.)

[GreatWyrmGold]

My biggest problem isn't the magic systems suggested, or how they're copied off of real-world religious practices, or how some of those practices are being taken from Hollywood's interpretation, but rather the implication that magic type is determined by race.

Don't get me wrong; elves probably wouldn't be pyromancers, and dwarves wouldn't get a lot of use from magic which involved shaping living trees. Certainly, the type of magical techniques, traditions, and spells--schools of magic, if you will--should be based on culture, and culture on race, but if an Elfton 1 is more like Dwarfhall than Elfton 2, Elfton 1's magic should be more like Dwarfhall's than Elfton 2's. The most important aspects, like how communal or individualistic the people are, and how much risk is acceptable, are also those which are unsimulated. Still, once they are, and once culture varies by entity rather than race, culture will need to be the deciding factor.

More importantly, though, is the role of individuals in magic. Elfton 2's elves might come up with a kind of magic which channels power from benevolent spirits to shift the world slightly, but if there's an unusually ambitious or impatient or whatever elf, said elf should be able and willing to go to Dwarfhall to learn how to store energy in gems and use it later to perform mighty feats, and then (ideally) combine the two and create a new school of magic which blends the practices of the two. All of this was started by one unusual individual, whose individual personality was the most important aspect in the new paradigm in magic.

In short, if you're looking at this from the point of view of the race, you're not looking closely enough.

[Ianflow]

If the debate on magic is still going on, I'd been thinking about it, and thought it would be interesting if:
Procedurally generated magic systems in a sense
Some spells would be innate based on the 'class' of the magic user, that they are class skills
Of course, necromancers have animate
wizards have a sort of magic missile

Further advances in magical sciences, would yield procedurally generated spells, with procedurally generated names

I like Great Wyrm Gold's interpretation, as a culture based magic system
I feel race and intelligence level/skills of a race should affect somewhat what types of magic are used, but not be restrictions
Well, except for some races, such as Kobolds not being severely advanced in magic (I feel they'd make better clerics in terms of magic, or at least, since they are a dying race, a primitive form of magic), and Goblins not being very good at healing spells in general

If you based it off of soul attributes and such, some races would have predisposition (I think that is the word for it) to certain types of magic, but if you overlay culture, you could overcome that

When I said procedurally generated spells, if you were to have someone who has no idea what spells do what, and only has the spell book
They might find "mighty hand" really just uses an invisible force to crush the lungs of the target
In terms of adventure mode, finding magical books, or any way to gain spells already made, would be tested via trial and error

I also agree with Kohaku, in terms of factors such as 'does this just create more problems'
I mean, we have to consider "Would adding magic give everyone and their grandma access to instant genocide level magic", which is silly, but when it comes into play, how easy it is to gain access to magic, is important
While it shouldn't be as improbable as gaining necromancer status (the bit about the slab being a gift of the gods), or having to defile a temple, it shouldn't be as easy as becoming a miner
It makes matters of adding magical resistance (that way magic isn't god mode essentially for any individual)
Along with that, I think the culture based magic could tie into certain skills
As another limiting factor, like DND in a sense, one's toughness stat could aid in 'mana', or more so 'not getting tired out easily/very quickly while levitating boulders around for short moments'

The theory of summoning could have to do with 'other planes of existence', or merely having contracted a bear so that you may summon it into battle
Then we could go into summoning costs, and 'revival' at certain extents

As I've written this post, I've gone from A to a point I can't name with a letter
I feel Magic would be wonderful, but it would be shaky at first to get a hang of

Then there is the matter of Alchemy which I feel hasn't entirely been addressed
I'm assuming it will involve an 'apothecary' workshop of some kind, and involve salves, for healing and fertility (potentially giving access to nervous system therapy, or inventing cures to syndromes and infections, and while fertility based items, wouldn't so much relate to dwarven or sentient breeding, but more to aid in animal husbandry).
It would also be culture based for the most part, but I'd assume in fortress mode you'd probably have the bare bones, and start 'discovering' alchemy in the sense of creating new recipes
Alchemy could relate to bioengineering, and could also relate to 'bombs', much more things like 'acid'. Which, would be engineered on levels of corrosiveness, desired target

I would love the spells to be infinite, but it could take a lot of data to program the bare bones for the magic system, and the alchemy system as another manner alone. Then again, I'm not well versed in programming, but I could see this as a lot.

It would be quite fun once fully implemented, magic and alchemy, but to get it in game would require large amounts of work
I'm honestly not the best source or credible person, but I do like to think I have something to bring to this topic

[Deboche]

Thanks for the tip about the thread title, Kohaku

Here's to clarify a few different things people posted, without quoting each one.

I think magic can be learned in 4 ways in real life:

- learn it from a person
- read it in a book
- discover it for yourself by accident (through meditation, a dream or divine revelation)
- be born with it

So in DF, both in Fortress and Adventurer mode, that's how it would happen. You could learn it from someone you meet who's willing to help or travel to a place specifically to learn. You can buy a grimoire or find one. In whatever primitive religious occupation a dwarf or other creature is engaged(such as prayer or worship) or in a dream, he might get a revelation and learn a system of magic, simple at first but more complex as he explores it. Or someone in your fortress could be born with a spark or you yourself in adventurer mode.

Of course, wizards would have to either be born with it or know magic from the begining and a new fortress should start with a religion already.

Different religions would have different rules but it would all come down to the same principles. And there would be two types of magic: the one you do yourself and the one where you call upon higher entities to do your bidding.

As GreatWyrm says, perhaps it makes no sense to define which race gets to use which magic system. However, some magic systems include body work. The body work of a dwarf and an elf would be different so perhaps those systems could not be shared. The same could happen with deities, some would serve only or feel an affinity with a specific race.

As for how magic is used in practical terms, that's where the already existing systems come into play.

In adventurer mode, everyone should be able to use magic. A wizard might start with previous knowledge of some system and have an easier time learning new stuff. There might be a stat that would correspond, say, to brain frequency. When you meditate your brain frequency goes higher into the alpha or theta state. The more you meditate in your day-to-day the higher the frequency is at all times. This makes you more sensitive to intuition and all occult work becomes more effective. This would also be the spellcasting stat for your dwarves in fortress mode.

So when you sleep in adventurer mode, perhaps you should get a description of a dream. If you're just a big barbarian brawler, it could just be a one line nonsense but if you're a wizard with a receptive mind, it could be something like a description of a man doing something by a tree. And at some point that day you find the tree and get an option to do what the man did in the dream and you get contacted by a deity or spirit. This spirit would teach you a ritual for charging crystals, a sigil or rune to call upon his help or a word or mantra.

Alternatively, you could contact a deity by going to a sacred place, like a church, a mushroom ring or a megalith and pray/meditate.

So the spirit teaches you how to contact it and how to use its powers. The more you contact it, the more you learn about how to use his power. Using the entities' power would then be either by performing an action or chanting(which would take a specific number of turns), by using its symbol/symbols to enchant items, using charged crystals or talismans and so on. Again, it would take looking through a few occult books to see how it's done and making the cost of a spell(in terms of time, effort, items required and whether one person is enough) consistent with its effects. As for the effects, it could be anything from fireballs to having more luck.

As suggested in many different occult systems, entities would exist in different levels of energy and the higher your brain frequency stat the higher you could go and contact more powerful entities. Perhaps each religion could have its own pantheon though it's also suggested that what one religion calls angels another calls demons and so on.

Now, when it comes to body work, it uses the body's energy, Chi, the chakras, etc. This type of stuff exists in many systems as well. This is the type of magic which might be useful for a melee brawler as well as a wizard. It's said to give you powers of shapeshifting, clairvoyance(and clairsentience), invisibility, walking through walls, etc.

So you would also learn this stuff from a book or person or a dream or by praying/meditating in some place that's not necessarily connected to a deity. Through meditation, you would get charged with energy/mana and with each meditation you would be able to do new things with your powers. At the begining it would be nothing special, just enough to make it worthwhile, maybe not even real magic, just the same benefits martial artists get from meditation such as stopping thought in the moment of a fight(I'm guessing, I've never done martial arts) so that you'd have an easier time getting critical hits and dodging and so on. As meditation went on and your brain frequency stat went up, so would the things you'd be able to do and the amount of energy/mana you get each time.

Of course, some limitation would have to be imposed on equipment such as magnetic/electrical interferences that would stop you from using some of your powers and define what you get to wear.

But all of these are just possibilities. My whole suggestion comes down to the fact that if you're going to have magic, it might as well be based on real life examples. That's it. I haven't thought the mechanics of it through. And you might not be able to include a lot of different systems and some such as chaos magic might not be adequate.

Whatever the system ends up being, it won't make sense if you can put on armor, be as strong physically as you can and still learn all the spells a wizard can. Spells will always have to take some time to be cast or draw upon a pool of power or both.

And since a system will have to exist, why create another new one? Another fantasy world with another take on magic? Dwarf fortress is very much concerned with real life variables and rules, it makes sense to go the real life source for magic.

As for a hollywood interpretation, the wicker man thing(the original movie wasn't even from Hollywood) and the Eyes wide shut thing were just examples of complex rituals and just because they were in movies doesn't mean they're that different from what's done in real life.

Kohaku - I understand what you say about making the I-ching in game not just be window-dressing and players figuring out the odds but I don't think that happens as much in DF. First of all, no one is trying to win at least for now it's very much a game about the journey rather than the destination and seeing what sorts of cool things you can do.

And this system would very much relate to the rest of DF. Say if you have your goblins do a ceremony to some evil deity of theirs and it demands the sacrifice of a dwarf for a blood ritual. The god's colour is purple so you have to find some way to dye all your monks' robes purple and so on. It's very much like the first time you have to figure out how to make soap and then it becomes a mechanical thing.

And these things aren't hard to research since you don't need to find out which is the colour, the metal, the gem, the day of the week and time of day for Jupiter, you just need to know these things exist and how they're used in rituals.

Whatever suggestions or ideas come up for magic, they'll always be twofold: 1 - how it works 2 - window-dressing. Whatever the 1 is, the 2 can be based on real life stuff even if it's as simple as having spellcasting dwarves learn fireball and have 300mp to cast it. The 2 can be anything really.

As for the 1, it makes sense to do it this way, sorry for repeating this so often, because it's based on real life, like DF tries to be about everything else even though it's fantasy. It's a consistent system with rewards based on investment(or can be so adapted) and with rules already drawn out(although they vary a lot from system to system).

[Neonivek]

some evil deity of theirs and it demands the sacrifice of a dwarf for a blood ritual

One important thing to note person is that the idea of sacrifice is not something unique to malevolent dieties it is actually something that almost all religions share. As well for most religions I can think of the "Sacrifice" is also not demanded to be of your enemies (A sacrifice of your enemies often is sort of a "Thank you for this victory" sort of aspect).\

As well sometimes Sacrifice isn't just seen as a thing to curry a gods favor but also as a very nessisary thing.

It could lead to a lot of interesting gameplay if Goblins did blood sacrifices to prevent an even nastier being asleep... or if the Elves dancing around in a circle actually kept the forest you live in alive.

or rather Rituals and sacrifice could be linked to real parts of the world that have real concequences should they be stopped.

--

An important thing to remember when applying religions and magic is that religions didn't just outline different rituals and effects that magic could take place... But also why it occured.

For example in Animism a painting or sculpure of someone or something is created and you then attack it in some manner. The reason this worked, as far as the practice is concerned, is not because of 'magic' so to speak but because according to animism the representation of something IS it.

It is why applying this standardised image of magic to everything is so damaging to what can essentially be a melting pot and why I think "Necromancers" are so perfect the way they are without mana pools or limitations being added ontop.

It is the idea that not only is magic different and performed differently but that they are different and work for entirely different reasons that can extend beyond systems of contract, spirits, and dieties.

Or rather that the "Arcane" is not just about magic but also how things work, a fantastical laws of physics so to speak. Thus effects that interupt magic won't nessisarily stop all forms of what we call magic because not all magical effects are magical, spiritual, fated, or divine... Sometimes they just are how things are.

I call this type of magic "Arcane Knowledge" but for the sake of this thread, because Arcane and magic are the same word, I shall call it "Philosophy magic" and "Magical Physics". Which I brought up before but right now is more appropriate since we are bringing up religions in the case of magic.

-Philosophy Magic: Magic that is gained and enhanced simply through the knowledge of a concept or idea (Knowing something gives you power)
-Magical Physics: Magic that is part of the worlds physics and not a part of magic.

Animism is all about magical physics and Philosophy magic is what current Necromancy falls under.

[weenog]

Just wanted to point out that "arcane" and "magic" aren't the same word and don't mean the same thing at all. "Arcane" means "known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric".  Necromancy as it exists in the game certainly counts, but so do plenty of things that aren't magical at all.  The source code for Dwarf Fortress (and to a lesser extent, coding in general).  Surgical techniques.  Tax and penal codes.  The full layout of Boatmurdered, and why it had a lever to flood the workshop.  Any knowledge that's difficult to acquire or understand and consequently is held by few, or activity or product that depends on such knowledge, could be rightly called arcane.  Magic based on knowing what most people don't know can be called arcane.  But arcane does not equal magic, nor is magic necessarily arcane.

[breadman]

Deboche: One of the problems with magic threads in general is that everyone wants to talk about how magic should "feel" all the time, which basically means they want it to be like the magic in their favorite fantasy novel, and the thread will turn into an argument about which fantasy novel has the best "feeling" magic system when they read it.  (Which is utterly irrelevant to DF, which is a game, not a novel.)

This reminds me of the Ethshar stories, which are notable for having several magic systems packed into the same world.  They're largely distinguished by power source, and have different strengths and drawbacks.  A potentially fruitful topic for another day, perhaps.

I recommend you retitle the thread (by editing your original post) to something like "Real-life religious magic systems in DF" or something similar to preclude the off-topic suggestions, and keep things to what your actual suggestion is about.

On this topic, I'm intrigued by rituals as an intersection between real-life religions and DF mechanics.  Consider:

Guthstak the Bloated Canker-Ooze is a deity of The Irons of Practice. Guthstak most often takes the form of a male dwarf and is associated with deformity.

Worshippers of Guthstak the Bloated Canker-Ooze traditionally wear porcelain earrings, bathe on the 15th of every month, and celebrate the killing of the elf Emofe Watchedsparkle by the minotaur Vutu Clashescats the Violence of Matching on 6th Slate.

Each deity would be associated with one or more rituals, of various frequencies:

• Clothing or jewelry: Devout worshippers may arrive wearing an item associated with their deity; any dwarf missing one may claim one (if available) for a happy thought.  Losing it or wearing it out could lead to a negative thought, particularly if it can't be replaced quickly.  Craftdwarves, clothiers, and gem cutters could be more likely to create an item associated with their deity when possible.  Devout nobles might demand production of such items.
• Daily or weekly: These are likely to be observed in adventure mode than fortress, due to the time scale.  Therefore, they should probably be simple meditations or exercises that adventurers and their companions can perform, and that could conceivably be performed by fortress-mode dwarves while on break.
• Monthly or seasonal: These rituals should be noticable in fortress mode; in the example above, several dwarves would line up at the local river or well three times a season.  Devout worshippers should get a negative thought if they cannot participate due to combat, burrows, or interruptions.
• Annual: In fortress mode, these celebrations might be indistinguishable from other parties.  Adventurers might be interested to find a town holding such a celebration, though.
• Life events: Birth, coming of age, marriage, and death may involve religious ceremonies, or might just be cultural on the entity level.

To answer NW_Kohaku's insightful questions:

• "What problem does this solve?"
  
  Since the rituals are continuous and simple, the effects should be continuous and subtle.  In fortress mode, one deity could make poultry produce more eggs, another could make food last longer before spoiling, and a third could make fighting more efficient.  The last could be extended into adventure mode, along with other forms of "luck" (in the NetHack sense).
  
  Perhaps more importantly, a devout worshipper should be far less upset when a devout worshipper of the same deity dies.
  
  
• "Are the costs/risks worth bothering with magic?"
  
  In fortress mode, the costs are minimal, but so are the rewards.  Ideally, each should be just significant enough to notice, particularly in the earlier years when food and personnel are scarce.  Dwarves will be claiming items and performing rituals on their own, so all you need to do is make it possible.  After a time, the benefits of extra happiness alone should be worth the costs.
  
  Adventurers might not bother unless their companions do, but those who maintain high devotion may well find certain things easier, and just might see an occasional miracle.  Converting to a companion's religion should be possible, with interesting effects including increased loyalty on their part.
  
  
• "Is there any reason not to have magic?"
  
  In fortress mode, too many devout worshippers of a single deity may cause negative thoughts in the remaining dwarves.  Some rituals will also take time, particularly for dwarves that need to travel a fair distance.  Some religions might even want you to set up an altar for them, which can take space and time.
  
  Similarly, devout adventurers may find that certain people have a grudge against your religion, particularly in areas with an active religious conflict.
  
  Seriously offending a deity should be possible in either mode, for various curse-style effects.
  
  
• "How does the game enforce specific play-styles through its mechanics?"
  
  Fortress mode dwarves will be less happy if their observances aren't properly enabled.  The most visible form will be a noble's demands.
  
  Adventure-mode companions may have certain times where they simply will not follow you, because they're busy.  Other people may refuse to discuss business on a holy day.
  
  
• "Are you keeping in mind that how a magic system "feels" is dependent only upon how the mechanics change player behavior?"
  
  At heart, this system is mostly window-dressing.  However, it makes certain things matter that rarely have before.
  
  In fortress mode, you might suddenly care about which dwarves worship whom.  You'll care quite a bit more about jewelry, which might influence your choice of craftsdwarf to assign to certain workshops, and materials to make available.
  
  Adventurers bear a higher burden if they want to maintain a high devotion.  It might be as simple as meditating, or eating no food after sundown, or crafting an arrowhead each day, but it needs to be something active.  They'll also want to wear their religion's symbolic clothing or jewelry, if any.
  
  
• "Will this be coded in a way that can remain flexible enough for modding?"
  
  This I'm less certain about.  Wearable items should be selected only from types and materials that the entity has access to.  Tags could be made for each type of ritual, placed under the [ENTITY] tag, specifying how often it should occur and perhaps certain parameters.  Similar tags would denote types of blessing, allowing each deity to choose one or more for granting to the worthy.  Unfortunately, each such tag could use some hard-coding.
  
  Partly, flexibility depends on finding a nice set of tags that can accept broad ranges of parameters.  Can monthly bathing be turned into something that takes a job parameter?  Would it make sense to have a ritual that requires eating a certain type of item?  If so, should it be listed in the raws as a particular item, or by class, leaving the deity room for further customization?
  
  
• "Does this system actually make sense for DF, and play to its strengths?"
  
  DF already has religions, and they're about to become a bit more visible with the location claims system.  This makes them matter.
  
  Spatial dimensions matter even more when it comes to performing rituals in certain places, potentially changing fortress design.  You might find that you need a well in a central location, or a statue garden, or an altar.
  
  The wearable items desired by your dwarves can impact workshop priority and trading.
  
  Finally, it might be a step toward Class Warfare, but on a scale that I could imagine programming.
  

[Neonivek]

If you talk in a lot of topics Breadman there is this strong sense that magic should be completely optional. That it has such strong disadvantages that "Not having magic" is perfectly viable.

My oppinion is as such: There is no reason why you wouldn't want magic in the same way there is no reason why you wouldn't want armor or you wouldn't want weapons or you wouldn't want food. It is a layer of the games strategy when introduced and if introduced.

Many cultures didn't opt out of magic because you couldn't. Doing so was death.

[weenog]

If you talk in a lot of topics Breadman there is this strong sense that magic should be completely optional. That it has such strong disadvantages that "Not having magic" is perfectly viable.

My oppinion is as such: There is no reason why you wouldn't want magic in the same way there is no reason why you wouldn't want armor or you wouldn't want weapons or you wouldn't want food. It is a layer of the games strategy when introduced and if introduced.

Many cultures didn't opt out of magic because you couldn't. Doing so was death.

No.  Just no.  I don't care if opinions are never wrong, that is wrong.  Perhaps the greatest strength of Dwarf Fortress is that there are so many ways to skin a cat.  We do not need an I Win button that obsoletes everything else and that you can't simply ignore if you don't like it.  That is anathema.  It is boredom, stagnation, and ruin.

[SuicideJunkie]

The current downside of armor is encumbrance, although that is mostly temporary with armor user skill.
Carrying half a tree worth of spellbooks and scrolls should also be pretty encumbering.

It should be fine to be a superheavy Mage-Knight, as long as you keep enough minions around to protect you from close quarter attacks you can't dodge or effectively reply to.
Might also be fun if you had to have a group of pages carry your armor and scrolls around for you in order to make the trip to the nearby bandit camp in a reasonable time.  You'd also have to protect those roadies from the bandits after you equip everything and march into the camp, or you'll never make it home again before nightfall.

And now I'm thinking about forts surrounded by a rail system with heavily armored mages standing waist-deep in scrolls, rolling around their patrol routes in +Steel Minecarts+ because they can't walk and can barely even stand.