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[Darkmere]

Is this the right place to point out how fucked up we are, as a people, that we're more inclined to act out of empathy for snippets of code than the suffering of other people who are in real pain and are just as self-aware as we are?

I mean, I know that's the subtext here, and not to derail or anything... but holy shit that makes me depressed.

[Mr Space Cat]

People just have different priorities, is all.

[Pnx]

Yeesh... ok, here's the thing. The code that went into creating the creatures in the creatures series is actually really comprehensive, far more comprehensive that a lot of people ever realise.

In fact I'd say that the intelligence of the creatures in the creatures series is approaching, but not quite in the region of my dogs or cats or other household animals (keeping in mind that the world the creatures reside in is far, far, simpler than the one we reside in, they don't have to worry about lots of complex spacial recognition issues and such). They do in fact act a hell of a lot like ordinary pets (barring the occasional glitch in the system), to the extent where I feel if you stripped my dog down psychologically and placed it in the creature's world, it would sometimes get a little hard to distinguish... if that makes sense.

They're also very good at tickling people's empathy bone, simply put, norns are designed to be very cute and easy to empathise with. Given this, it's actually very easy to see how people could get very worked up about creatures being abused the same way they get worked up about dogs being horribly abused.

While I recognise that the existence of a creature is different from the existence of my dog (I can't pause, save or reload my dog's life for example), I have to admit, I still find it more than a little bit off-putting that someone would go around trying abuse a creature, even if it is just for educational purposes.

I'm not saying that this reaction wasn't a bit ridiculous, and I get that a lot of people would have a lot of trouble understanding this, especially if you're the type to assign pretty much no significant value to the life of an animal, but I am saying that I honestly can empathise with that kind of position.

[Neonivek]

Then there is Creatures 3 with a heck of a lot of neat ways to kill off your norns.

[Darkmere]

I'm not saying that this reaction wasn't a bit ridiculous, and I get that a lot of people would have a lot of trouble understanding this, especially if you're the type to assign pretty much no significant value to the life of an animal, but I am saying that I honestly can empathise with that kind of position.

Okay, this. And please don't treat this as a personal attack, because it isn't meant to be. But this is what bothers me a bit, because it does directly equate *my* position as someone who, because I don't agonize over code, lacks empathy for other living creatures. I've dealt with a few abused animals (abandoned strays and worse) before, and frankly it makes me angry to the point of sickness over it.

But uh, those were... like... real. And yes, had I the power, I would probably be inclined to impose similar suffering on their "caregivers" that put them in that situation.

This still isn't much of a justification for threatening to end the existence of a sapient life form over a set of 1's and 0's on a computer. In a way, it'd be like someone threatening Stephen King for writing Cujo, because look what he did to that dog! What a monster! We do worse to each other, every day, and that's given a pass.

Alright, soapbox down. It's not so much the feeling of empathy for a non-real entity (that is at least part of the point of these games), it's how stark a contrast there is between that and utter carelessness with actual beings.

[Chattox]

I think perhaps it comes down to the whole discussion of at which point AI will become level with organic intelligence and whether we should treat it as such. As it stands (norns included) I don't think that's the case just yet. Getting mad at someone abusing norns to me is akin to getting mad at someone for typing gibberish into a spreadsheet and breaking it. It has the same significance in terms of implied suffering, imo.
Norns heavily blur the line though, so I can see why some people would get mad because, as Pnx said, Norns are designed to be easy to empathise with and are built to make you want to care for them (as is essentially the advertised point of the game). However, I don't think they've come far enough to be considered entities in and of themselves. You can still artificially tweak pretty much everything about them (which I am aware you can do to an extent with organic organisms, but the key difference is repairing it for Norns is just a ctrl+z away) and they wont care if you don't want them to. It's possible to build them up from scratch and then copy, edit or delete them with ease and they aren't aware of any of this.
The more I type the more I realise I'm rambling because I can't properly put into words what I'm trying to say, but the basic gist of my point is that, while the line is certainly blurred in this case, Norns are still arbitrary 1s and 0s with no particular intrinsic value considering how easily created, duplicated, edited and deleted they are.

Yet, anyway. Grandroids may change that

[NRDL]

PTW, this looks cool.  I'd love to breed the meanest, toughest cats in existence, and have them win feline back street brawls. 

[Anvilfolk]

Well, there have been real-time simulation of rat's brains using CPU's. They're also 0's and 1's, it doesn't mean they don't have a little bit of sentience/awareness. What Pnx said is rather pertinent, I feel. Norns have limited brains - yes - but that is mostly because they are living in a world of limited interactions. It doesn't mean that their awareness isn't as high as a dog's or a cat's, for instance. I think Norns are really blurring the line here, but would need to know more about how they are implemented.

The argument that they are just "0's and 1's" is about the same as that we are just "space-particles together for an insanely short period of time" (replace space-particles with atoms, molecules, or whatever). It's how they come together that matters, not their basic support (digital or organic).

[hops]

I don't actually want this game for torture, sure, it would be pretty cool, but what I really want are super cats. I believe the idea that we are who we are even in games and anonymous sites, and we don't know how obvious our mannerisms are.

Anyways I think that came out confusing, but what I meant to say is that enjoying the torture of digital beings doesn't make you a good person. It's just that digital is always a better place than RL to commit taboo acts.

Also I womder how nightmarish it would be to exist as a norn, being prone to getting deleted without knowing it.

[lordcooper]

Also I womder how nightmarish it would be to exist as a norn, being prone to getting deleted without knowing it.

Pretty much as nightmarish as existing as a human, I assume.

[hops]

Also I womder how nightmarish it would be to exist as a norn, being prone to getting deleted without knowing it.

Pretty much as nightmarish as existing as a human, I assume.

God don't press Ctlr+Z

[Graknorke]

Also I womder how nightmarish it would be to exist as a norn, being prone to getting deleted without knowing it.

Pretty much as nightmarish as existing as a human, I assume.

God don't press Ctlr+Z

How would you know?

[nenjin]

Guys, let's get the Creatures discussion and discussions about human morality into its own thread please.

[Sonlirain]

Also I womder how nightmarish it would be to exist as a norn, being prone to getting deleted without knowing it.

Pretty much as nightmarish as existing as a human, I assume.

God don't press Ctlr+Z

How would you know?

Well apparently JHWH decided to screw with Jobs (Job was a very religious person and a prophet to boot) life because of a freaking BET with Satan.
He has ample acces to ctrl + z but why use it if he can ruin you in many less direct ways in order to entertain himself (and maybe make a few more bets with Satan while we're at it!).

[Lectorog]

Guys, let's get the Creatures discussion and discussions about human morality into its own thread please.

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what interesting varieties of creatures I can get, and how that affects other things in the game. Like interactions between the cats.