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Author Topic: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...  (Read 16070 times)

Zarat

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2013, 08:03:31 am »

May have been some contrary statements, but I believe Tolkien decided on her being born in Valinor - she's gotta be substantially younger than Cirdan, at any rate. There's allusions to her being conceived under the Two Trees (why the light of them is caught in her hair.)
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2013, 04:08:48 am »

*flexes the corded muscles of concentrated nerd*

Galadriel was born in Valinor, a long time after Elves awoke at Cuivienen, and was indeed around in the time of the trees, though if I recall she is the youngest of her family. She came to Middle Earth with Feanor in the first age (about 4000 years before the War of the Rings). However, the Age of the Trees in which she was born reportedly lasted tens of thousands of years, so she is old indeed. She really never demonstrates any combat potential whatsoever. Her power lies mainly in foresight and wisdom, as well as leadership. She can apparantly block the Eye of Sauron as he tries constantly to spy within Lorien, which is no mean feat.

Also, Gandalf the Grey is certainly powerful, but is pressed to hold off even a portion of the Nazgul at Weathertop. He is forced to leave before meeting Strider and the hobbits there or else risk facing them all (and their dread captain). If Gandalf could take the Witch-King before his rebirth, he doesn't show it, and indeed seems to actively avoid a confrontation with him. At any rate, anyone who doubts what the Witch-King can do should look up the scene with Grond at the gate of Minas Tirith. Gandalf the Grey can't match that (but it adds weight to Gandalf the White standing in the aftermath).

Also, equating Gandalf to a Balrog would be inaccurate. Gandalf is not (to my knowledge) a spirit of fire, specifically. His power over fire comes by his own admission from special studies regarding the subject, and is likely augmented by the Elvish Ring of Fire, which Cirdan gave him. His magical abilities more often reflect light and lightning than fire. When he refers to himself as a "Servant of the Secret Fire", I think he is talking about the Imperishable Flame of Illuvatar (Pretty much God), which is what allows the creation of life. Spirits in Middle-Earth change form according to their natures. Morgoth was once a princely being, and eventually lost his ability to take this form as he commited more and more acts of evil. The Balrogs are hulking, superpowered fire-demons because of how their actions have shaped them.

A note on Bombadil relating to all this talk of age: When asked about his origins, he replies: ""Eldest, that's what I am." And that he "remembers the dark when it was fearless, before the dark lord came from outside". He was in Middle Earth before Morgoth was, and this puts him in the uncounted years before even the Age of the Lamps. Tom Bombadil is almost certainly the most powerful being (as age often equates to power in Lord of the Rings) to ever exist in Middle Earth, possibly exempting (some of) the Valar themselves.

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« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 04:10:41 am by dunamisdeos »
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Gentlefish

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2013, 04:27:43 am »

All of this makes me want to read Middle Earth stories, but I just can't stomach the style :(

kopout

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2013, 03:52:06 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This made me laugh. Which made evryone in the library look at me funny
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Maw

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2013, 06:06:36 am »

Gandalf was one of the five Istari (Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast the Brown, and the two blue brothers who went East and left the tales).  Refer to the Istari writings in Unfinished Tales by JRRT.

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Gandalf was the servant of Manwë or Varda, but was a lover of the Gardens of Lórien, and so knew much of the hopes and dreams of Men and Elves.
from Wikipedia.
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Tolkien explicitly links Gandalf to the element Fire later in the same essay:
Wiki

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In the same letter Tolkien states he was given the form of an old man in order to limit his powers on Earth.
Wiki

The Istari were not sent forth to match Sauron power for power, but to move the hearts and minds of the good peoples of M/E.
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Tiruin

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2013, 07:10:52 am »

All of this makes me want to read Middle Earth stories, but I just can't stomach the style :(
The creator of such is the pioneer of every modern fantasy you know of today. Give him some leeway! :P



Also @OP: Middle Earth Dwarves (this is how they're etymologically spelled) did not have tantrum spirals akin to our beloved DF Dwarves. While they did fluster about on minor trivialities, they had a more rigid and diplomatic hierarchy of governing things down from petty crimes to war with other civilizations.

Granted, you're only seeing The Hobbit :P There were a lot more things going down than Dwarves, their tantrums and the loss of forts. As far as I recall, not one fort has ever fallen due to any Dwarven error...Just who they met was the primary problem.
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EpsilonSigma

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2013, 09:53:52 am »

Granted, you're only seeing The Hobbit :P There were a lot more things going down than Dwarves, their tantrums and the loss of forts. As far as I recall, not one fort has ever fallen due to any Dwarven error...Just who they met was the primary problem.

That depends on whether you consider hoarding too much gold in one place with the ever-real threat of a dragon attack a mistake.



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Bavette

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2013, 10:16:21 am »

Granted, you're only seeing The Hobbit :P There were a lot more things going down than Dwarves, their tantrums and the loss of forts. As far as I recall, not one fort has ever fallen due to any Dwarven error...Just who they met was the primary problem.

That depends on whether you consider hoarding too much gold in one place with the ever-real threat of a dragon attack a mistake.
It took Smaug more 6000 years to siege and subsequently destroy Erebor.
For all that time the dwarves in there would dig gold, make crafts, receive ambassadors, etc. One day the smell of gold came to the Greedy One's nostrils and so he went flying from whatever dark hole that gave him shelter and the rest is known. I don't know if I can call that a ever-real threat of dragon attack, but they did made a mistake to piss off Legola's father (can't remember his name) as it is proven in the book and the movie, when the elves refused to come to their aid.
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tiresius

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2013, 12:24:20 pm »

*flexes the corded muscles of concentrated nerd*
....
All good stuff thank you sir!

Since Bombadil is one of the few unanswered mysteries of Middle Earth there is a lot of conjecture, of course.  I always thought of him as a force of nature.  Part of Middle-Earth itself, constant, and not subject to the weakness of mortality in any of its forms.  It's like trying to quantify how powerful the ocean is.
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"There are no safe paths in this part of the world.  Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild now, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go." - Gandalf in The Hobbit

Orange Wizard

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2013, 10:54:34 pm »

*flexes the corded muscles of concentrated nerd*
....
All good stuff thank you sir!

Since Bombadil is one of the few unanswered mysteries of Middle Earth there is a lot of conjecture, of course.  I always thought of him as a force of nature.  Part of Middle-Earth itself, constant, and not subject to the weakness of mortality in any of its forms.  It's like trying to quantify how powerful the ocean is.
I always assumed that Bombadil was like Gandalf, but witless. Reading this thread has reminded me that he commanded an Armok-damned Barrow-wight to die, and the Universe had no choice but to obey.
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krenshala

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2013, 02:16:29 am »

I sometimes wonder if Bombadil is actually Ea's younger brother. :)


(sorry, too late at night for me to figure out adding the umlaut to the a)
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Tiruin

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2013, 05:33:52 am »

I believe Tolkien explained in one of his letters that Bombadil wasn't meant to be explained - he acted as the literary example of mystery in every legend. The author always enjoyed that part of tales and myths, so part of Bombadil's character was shaped in that manner...

I'm not sure if that letter I read was in the preface following one of the "trilogy" in LoTR (should actually be six books but thanks @ publishers for joining two and two and two together :P), but I'm sure the explanation is somewhere.
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krenshala

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2013, 02:37:49 pm »

I believe Tolkien explained in one of his letters that Bombadil wasn't meant to be explained - he acted as the literary example of mystery in every legend. The author always enjoyed that part of tales and myths, so part of Bombadil's character was shaped in that manner...

I'm not sure if that letter I read was in the preface following one of the "trilogy" in LoTR (should actually be six books but thanks @ publishers for joining two and two and two together :P), but I'm sure the explanation is somewhere.
Now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure its in the Book of Lost Tales.  I had forgotten about it.
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Quote from: Haspen
Quote from: phoenixuk
Zepave Dawnhogs the Butterfly of Vales the Marsh Titan ... was taken out by a single novice axedwarf and his pet war kitten. Long Live Domas Etasastesh Adilloram, slayer of the snow butterfly!
Doesn't quite have the ring of heroics to it...
Mother: "...and after the evil snow butterfly was defeated, Domas and his kitten lived happily ever after!"
Kids: "Yaaaay!"

Ruhn

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2013, 05:42:52 pm »

I believe Tolkien explained in one of his letters that Bombadil wasn't meant to be explained - he acted as the literary example of mystery in every legend. The author always enjoyed that part of tales and myths, so part of Bombadil's character was shaped in that manner...

That's the great thing about fantasy: showing you something cool and leaving how it was possible up to your imagination.

Urist McDwarfFortress

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Re: Middle Earth Dwarfs didn't have tantrum spirals...
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2013, 07:01:05 pm »

Several posts on here are equating goblin sieges in DF and LotR, which is just silly. A large siege in DF is maybe 50 gobbos. In the LotR universe, this would be a small, almost negligible, raiding party. An ork army would typically number in the thousands, if not tens of thousands. The army that attacked Helm's Deep was over 10,000 strong, and the army that attacked Minas Tirith easily dwarfed that.
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