Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 13

Author Topic: Minimum Wage  (Read 9867 times)

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2013, 03:01:50 pm »

The actual worth of a salary is relativistic. Raising the minimum wage for the country, but not raising the wages of those in higher income brackets would place more people within the same income bracket. The goods that are in that price range suddenly have a huge influx of people that want to/can  buy it. Increased demand tends to drive up prices, leading to more inflation. Once inflation catches up, a lot of people just got knocked down lower than they were before, and it's not the rich people that were supposed to be brought down, it's the people who's financial space is being invaded by those who were just below them. If inflation were to be controlled as well, more people would be buying it. But this means supply gets more strained, and eventually would lead to running out of said product, unless it were rationed. I suppose you could produce more of said product, but even production would eventually peak, and such changes to the system would mean we approach that limit faster.

However, if the wage hike is increased only in one area, then they would have more relativistic buying power compared to people who did not receive a wage hike. The result is that it is easier for Americans to buy foreign goods, but harder to buy domestic goods.  Because companies would be able to sell more product or service if it is produced cheaper, this would lead to outsourcing, meaning fewer jobs at home and fewer people earning that higher minimum wage.

However, this means that the poorest in the USA would be on higher ground relative to others around the world. The result is that it would be harder for anyone, even americans, to buy the relatively expensive American-made goods (assuming the price goes up), and easier for Americans to buy the relatively cheaper foreign-made goods. Both of these factors point in the same direction, and that direction is outsourcing. Companies exist to make money. Those that don't will not survive in such a cutthroat business world. So they will calculate the ideal balance of selling to more people, while milking those people for everything they can get for their product/service. This means moving production to a lower cost area. However, if too much production is moved away fro the USA, they could lose out on that customer base almost completely because they would have no money left. The latter fact, combined with the relatively high population of the USA means that this would stabilize eventually, what with them not wanting to lose such a huge customer base forever, but will also leave most of the Americans in a lower position than when it began. Meanwhile, the places where the companies now operate are relatively stronger than before.

Also, a company paying it's employees more money, which would under ideal circumstances be 100% recycled back into the company does not mean that company makes that much more money. If a car manufacturer gives their employees each $16000 so that they could buy cars from the company, the company does not make $16000 dollars per employee. What is actually happening is that they jut gave each of their employees a free car. The actual benefits (if any) and less tangible, like improved morale. it's difficult to say how much benefit they get from it, but economic entropy says that it can't be more than breaking even without some outside factors coming into play. Competition is a two-way street; if companies are to be allowed to compete, then workers must be allowed to do the same.


In short, there are other problems that need to be addressed before we try to overhaul the system. The fact that available labor, production, supply, and resources are finite all come to mind. There's also the fact that trying to organize larger groups of people all at once tends to lead to disaster and very painful inefficiency. How do you expect a small group of people to treat a mass of millions or billions of people like individuals instead of lumping them into general groups? People are tribal by nature, and large-scale societies are very touchy and hard to balance manually. You can gain a few things if the people directing all of it are doing it properly, but the complexity of the job and that some unsavory types get into power, leads me to support the philosophy "the less the government has to do, the better". Until certain material, and especially societal problems are addressed, I will err on the side of localized authority for most things.

But I'm starting to get off on a tangent. Though I feel it is important in understanding my position on the issue, I have stated it before in other threads and don't want to clutter this one up too much with it.






Also, apparently ctrl+i does italics. Fascinating.

Andrew425

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2013, 03:03:06 pm »

Though my economic profs would say differently I think a minimum wage is a good thing.

The only argument against it is that if a job only creates $8 worth of wealth for a business there is no way they will hire anyone if the minimum wage is $9 or even $7
Logged
May the mass times acceleration be with you

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2013, 03:04:34 pm »

I have read, i don't remember where, that if the minimum wage had increased with inflation it would be aground $20 per hour.
And that is the lowest estimate.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

Virex

  • Bay Watcher
  • Subjects interest attracted. Annalyses pending...
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2013, 03:11:35 pm »

The actual worth of a salary is relativistic.


It goes down as you approach light speed?
Logged

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2013, 03:15:42 pm »

I have read, i don't remember where, that if the minimum wage had increased with inflation it would be aground $20 per hour.
And that is the lowest estimate.
But if we were to scale the minimum wage with inflation, then it would make inflation rise faster. God help us if it spirals into hyper-inflation.

I guess revolutions are good for resetting the system, but not so good at replacing it.


The actual worth of a salary is relativistic.


It goes down as you approach light speed?
Come to think of it, it kind of does. If I didn't have this foil hat wrapped so tightly around my head, it would have exploded just now.

Mimidormi

  • Bay Watcher
  • Magnetite.
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2013, 03:16:43 pm »

Well, having higher minimum wage than most of Europe isn't very hard anyway. Up here in the north (at least I believe the other Nordic countries follow the same system) and, iirc, Germany, we don't even have minimum wages at all. On a government level, that is. It's all handled by the unions here.
No minimum wage down here in Italy either. I wish it was a thing :'(
Logged

Lagslayer

  • Bay Watcher
  • stand-up philosopher
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2013, 03:19:58 pm »

But if every country had the same minimum wage, it would do nothing.

Darn system always changing when we observe it.

PanH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2013, 03:43:51 pm »

But if every country had the same minimum wage, it would do nothing.
Well, yes, it would prevent anyone to get a lower than the minimum wage  :D

Though, generally, an increase of wage benefits the economy (and everyone).
Logged

sneakey pete

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2013, 04:00:24 pm »

As mentioned by lagslayer, I think, you can't directly compare countries minimum wages without comparing their purchasing power. Our minimum wage is up around $16 an hour here, however everything costs more than it does in the USA, so its not actually double what it is in the USA purchasing power wise.
Logged
Magma is overrated.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2013, 04:09:46 pm »

how much is a gallon of sickly, diseased milk? its about $4 here.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

penguinofhonor

  • Bay Watcher
  • Minister of Love
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2013, 04:11:56 pm »

As mentioned by lagslayer, I think, you can't directly compare countries minimum wages without comparing their purchasing power. Our minimum wage is up around $16 an hour here, however everything costs more than it does in the USA, so its not actually double what it is in the USA purchasing power wise.

Yeah, and in those countries where everyone makes a dollar a day in wages, well... it's not good, but they're better off than they'd be if they made a dollar a day in Europe or America.
Logged

Truean

  • Bay Watcher
  • Ok.... [sigh] It froze over....
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2013, 04:16:46 pm »

Wages are relative to purchasing power. What does a dollar (or unit of currency) get you....

People would gladly work for $1 per day if their mortgage was a dime. ($0.10)
Logged
The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Heron TSG

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Seal Goddess
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2013, 04:19:00 pm »

If a car manufacturer gives their employees each $16000 so that they could buy cars from the company, the company does not make $16000 dollars per employee. What is actually happening is that they jut gave each of their employees a free car. The actual benefits (if any) and less tangible, like improved morale. it's difficult to say how much benefit they get from it, but economic entropy says that it can't be more than breaking even without some outside factors coming into play. Competition is a two-way street; if companies are to be allowed to compete, then workers must be allowed to do the same.
1. Employees are not their only marketing target.
2. Employees of a car manufacturing company will help create more than one car over their career. (I would hope.)

That's not a 'free' car, that's a car that they worked 2,207 hours for at minimum wage. (More than a year of 40 hour work weeks.) If the wage is higher, the employee doesn't have to work an entire year to buy that car.

Those employees are going to need a vehicle of some kind, most likely. If they don't have much money, it'll be a cheap used car. If they have the money, they just might buy from the company they work for. The employer recoups $16000 dollars in wages. That car can be driven around, and maybe work as advertisement. If the car comes at a bit of a discount, the employee is more likely to buy that $16000 car from their employer than they are to buy a $16000 car from a competitor.

Very few employers would give away 'free cars' as a bonus to rank-and-file workers. But sure, employee discounts are just good sense.
Logged

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
The Artist Formerly Known as Barbarossa TSG

10ebbor10

  • Bay Watcher
  • DON'T PANIC
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2013, 04:20:38 pm »

You know what, all this economy stuff is way to complicated, and doesn't serve any good purpose anyway. Let's just put it all in a common pile and give everyone his share.
Logged

Doomblade187

  • Bay Watcher
  • Requires music to get through the working day.
    • View Profile
Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2013, 04:41:47 pm »

You know what, all this economy stuff is way to complicated, and doesn't serve any good purpose anyway. Let's just put it all in a common pile and give everyone his share.
But then we run into issues with corruption, I'm afraid- someone would have to control said pile, and power corrupts... Anyway, back on topic.

Okay, a quick google gave me the statistic that about 5% of hourly workers (59.1% of all workers) recieve minimum wage or less, of which half of those minimum wage or less workers being under 25. It should also be noted that inflation could be an issue, considering recent Fed policy.

The site: http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm

From 2011, by the way.
Logged
In any case it would be a battle of critical thinking and I refuse to fight an unarmed individual.
One mustn't stare into the pathos, lest one become Pathos.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 13