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Author Topic: Minimum Wage  (Read 9840 times)

Mr. Palau

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Minimum Wage
« on: February 21, 2013, 10:28:58 am »

So first off I wanted to say that this forum is actually one of the best I have come across in regards to political discussions. They can become somewhat heated, but are generally very cordial and more importantly intellectual as well. 

Now on topic.

Some of you may think that I am a conservative, based on the discussions in the previous threads, like the healthcare ones for instance, although those were a long time ago and it has been quite a long time since I have posted in these forums. I'm actually quite liberal, in the american sense of the word and on the American political spectrum, although in other countries that puts me to the center or the right. Compared to you all I might be more conservative, or slightly more liberal, don't really remember how far left ya'll were.

Anyway, as most of you will know president Obama wants to raise the minimum wage, to 9$ an hour, from 7.3$ or so, a roughly 30% increase. First I want to know what you think about that.

I for one am actually a fan of the minimum wage, because it ensures a good standard of living, below which we will not let people fall. It also keeps people off of welfare and out there working. Also welfare programs today subsidizes low wages because employees have an artificially raised standard of living, they consume more than just their wages. So employers can potentially hire people for less than they would otherwise, because people are willing to work for less money. Given that welfare programs subsidizes low wages, I would like to seek an indirect end to the effects of that subsidy, while keeping the standard of living for the lower class the same.

I want to raise minimum wages to a lower middle class level of income, to put an end to all but the most basic welfare programs for people that are working (ie. still get workers comp and other things, but no medicare and food stamps or cash payments). For some background, according to CNN (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/08/30/ilo.study/) in 2001 Americans worked almost 2000 hours a year, or 38 and 1/2 hours per week, not counting vacation (38 and 1/2 is just ~2000/52, so it is really the average worked per week, so on most weeks you could actually work a lot more, but of course the vacation time has you working zero hours, thus dropping the average quite a bit).

Based on some one working 2000 hours, we need a minimum wage of 9$ an hour to ensure that people in rural and other low cost of living areas can make ends meat. That would have them making 36,000$ a year, which is 10,000$ above the threshold where most of the poverty programs kick in. I think we have to adjust the minimum wage for cost of living too, because living in NYC is far more expensive than rural areas, so  for high cost of living areas the minimum wage should obviously be more. For NYC specifically, it has been reported that
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/cities-high-cost-of-living_n_1236841.html) the poverty line adjusted for cost of living in NYC is 60,000 dollars a year. I say we have to have a minimum wage of 18$ an hour in the city, that would have them making 72,000$ a year, enough to make sure no one who is working needs a welfare check.

The above calculations all assumed dual income households, we of course need programs out there for single mothers and other single parent households.

I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. See I know that this would mean a modest increase in unemployment in the short-term, but it would save the government billions of dollars, and more importantly raise the working poor's standard of living. Also the poor's increased monetary resources would stimulate demand, since this money is coming primarily out of either corporate profits or increasing the cost of living or price raises, and the corporate profits are sitting on the side lines.

I was actually thinking of making it so that the minimum wage was for a single person household, but that would lead to average families dual income earners making 72,000, which is more than the average income.

Thoughts?
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zombie urist

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 11:11:16 am »

Ehh. It's not that easy. If companies are forced to pay their workers more, they'll also just raise the prices of whatever they're selling. And cause inflation and such.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2013, 11:44:09 am »

An increased minimum wage is a good start, but what about people who don't qualify for poverty programs because they work, but only work part time? Welfare is damn near impossible to get on if you have a job of any kind, even if you make less than the program would give you.
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Heron TSG

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2013, 11:58:23 am »

I'm proud to say that Washington (the state) has the highest minimum wage in the country, at $9.19/hour. It's great. In this economy, it's hard to find any sort of job that isn't minimum wage, and being able to actually survive off of that is fantastic.

Admittedly, that means raising the Federal minimum wage to $9/hour doesn't really affect me, but I'd like to see other states get the same benefits.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2013, 12:02:22 pm »

I'm proud to say that Washington (the state) has the highest minimum wage in the country, at $9.19/hour. It's great. In this economy, it's hard to find any sort of job that isn't minimum wage, and being able to actually survive off of that is fantastic.

Admittedly, that means raising the Federal minimum wage to $9/hour doesn't really affect me, but I'd like to see other states get the same benefits.
We're at $7.40, so $9 would be a huge improvement. I personally make $12.50/hr, but I only work like, 6 hours a week, and that's the way it'll be until I get my degree. The $12.50/hr gets me a lot of funny looks when I go to the free clinic for health issues, assuming I can get in at all.
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Funk

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2013, 12:04:21 pm »

the counter argument is that the Minimum Wage will reduce the number of jobs  due to the cost of wages.
now is fuller employment better than a living wage?
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10ebbor10

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 12:12:27 pm »

I'm pretty sure there would be seriously problems with selling this system. Especially the city/rural divide is going to have some problems.

On a seperate note, a 30% increase would mean that the US would have a higher maximum wage than most European nations. Though comparing is rather hard, so don't trust me on that.
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Truean

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 12:25:07 pm »

I'm pretty sure there would be seriously problems with selling this system. Especially the city/rural divide is going to have some problems.

On a seperate note, a 30% increase would mean that the US would have a higher maximum wage than most European nations. Though comparing is rather hard, so don't trust me on that.

....

Europe doesn't have student loans, or the idea that you should be nickle and dimed to death half so much as the US does. I hear education is paid for from kindergarten to the doctorate in France.... Basically once you factor in all the benefits being a European gives you (and the number of detriments it doesn't get you) over being American, it works out in favor of the Europeans.

The idea that a minimum wage is anti business is flatly absurd, and devastatingly short sighted.
Businesses don't like paying "employees," but love charging "customers," while being foolish enough not to realize they are the same thing. The factories who listened to me when I told them this are still riding out the recession. The rest are dead or dying.

Even if you take the blatant pro business "people are lazy/I worked hard and they didn't" line of the current batch of party conservatives, it doesn't work out. In that instance, you have things supporting your business, called customers. If you waana think of them like sheep you fleece, then fine. You still need to keep the herd healthy to get more wool.... They need money to buy what you'e selling. Somebody's gotta pay that in the form of wages/salary.... Otherwise, who are you peddling that $50 tee shrit or whatever the crap it is you sell, to?

Companies don't go down with costs go up.
Companies don't go down from hiring more people.

Companies go down, when sales and revenue go down....

Sales are it, because they support everything in the company.

Higher minimum wage means more ability for customers to purchase, means more sales, means healthier businesses, means more jobs. It's not hard, but people are averse to spending money when they don't really know how to make it but have a business that does. Money, (or as Republicans call it "MINE!") can't be hoarded to make more, it needs to flow.

Minimum wage solves the "free rider" problem. If I pay my workers more under the theory that it will infuse cash into my customer base, but nobody else in the nation does, then every other producer of goods/business gets the benefit of my workers being able to buy more of their stuff. I, in turn, do not get the same benefit, because those other businesses, are cheap.... Translation, I'm screwed.

Minimum wage forces everyone to do it, so there are no free riders. There are no unscrupulous minimum wage businesses who benefit from other minimum wage industries paying their workers more while not doing so themselves in the minimum wage senario. It is an equalizer.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 12:31:51 pm by Truean »
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Sheb

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2013, 12:32:43 pm »

Really? France's minimum wage is 12,46$ an hour, Belgium's 10,85 (for new hire, the minimum wage rise when you stay in your job).

According to Wiki, a 9$/hour minimum wage would place the US right behind the UK
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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2013, 12:48:04 pm »

If there is no welfare system for working people, Minimum wage should be enough to support a household on less than 2 full time jobs. Why? because when you have both parents working full time, you need a full time baby sitter for the children, who will also require a full time minimum wage income. The end result of this is that the family will only not be able to fully take care of their kids and meet their financial obligations at minimum wage.
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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 01:07:01 pm »

Really? France's minimum wage is 12,46$ an hour, Belgium's 10,85 (for new hire, the minimum wage rise when you stay in your job).

According to Wiki, a 9$/hour minimum wage would place the US right behind the UK
Then B.C. Canada's minimum wage comes up right ahead of the UK, with the equivalent of 7.62 euro (10.25 CAD)
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Heron TSG

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 01:09:40 pm »

the counter argument is that the Minimum Wage will reduce the number of jobs  due to the cost of wages.
now is fuller employment better than a living wage?
Washington is actually matching the US unemployment change (-.2% between December/January), and currently has a lower than average unemployment rate. (7.6% to the US as a whole's 7.9%.)

There are many states that are worse off with lower minimum wages.
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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 01:15:20 pm »

Really? France's minimum wage is 12,46$ an hour, Belgium's 10,85 (for new hire, the minimum wage rise when you stay in your job).

According to Wiki, a 9$/hour minimum wage would place the US right behind the UK
Made an error there. I based my statements of some other statistic, assuming that a direct increase in minimum wage would be reflected by it. In hindsight, it was foolish to think that.

Europe doesn't have student loans, or the idea that you should be nickle and dimed to death half so much as the US does. I hear education is paid for from kindergarten to the doctorate in France.... Basically once you factor in all the benefits being a European gives you (and the number of detriments it doesn't get you) over being American, it works out in favor of the Europeans.
While not exactly free, costs are pretty low, assuming you actually succeed, of course. (You get a second change or 2, but after that you're paying for everything yourself).
[/quote]

On the rest of the post. I was not talking about the minimum wage will kill bussiness aspect, but rather about having minimum wages in cities be more than twice than wages in rural areas. Such a system would be hard to manage and won't accomplish it's goal anyway. (Because commuting is a thing, and the minimum wage is based on where the industry is located). The result you'll get is that most Low cost industry will leave the cities (sensible, I suppose), and that you'd see an increase of population in suburban areas surrounding citie, and hence commuting. People in the cities themselves might not see such a large benefit, and this might actually cause the inside of the city to rot and fall into disrepair.

Oh, and Belgium has some weird/nice but certainly unique indexation system, which automatically adjust all/most wages to balance them out against the averaged cost of living (based on the prices of several nessecities.) It's a social plus, but not that good for the economy*, and amplificates inflation.

*I guess that employers like to be able to set wages themselves
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scriver

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Re: Minimum Wage
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 02:48:52 pm »

Well, having higher minimum wage than most of Europe isn't very hard anyway. Up here in the north (at least I believe the other Nordic countries follow the same system) and, iirc, Germany, we don't even have minimum wages at all. On a government level, that is. It's all handled by the unions here.
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