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Author Topic: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]  (Read 8007 times)

Miuramir

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2013, 04:47:29 pm »

Hence, if you're having an argument about which would have been more useful in real life, then the answer is that bronze is superior to crude iron, but inferior to well-made steel.  It's all a matter of what quality of metal you can actually produce.

The first practical metal tools and weapons were copper (Cu).  They are fairly functional as axes; an archaeological test of a replica of Ötzi the Iceman's copper-bladed, yew-hafted axe showed it could fell a yew tree in 35 minutes without needing to be resharpened.  Note that this dates to about 3,300 BCE; and the copper had been smelted from ore, cast, and then cold-forged (hammer-worked) to get the final edge.  Copper daggers also existed in various societies.  The two problems are that copper is rare, and it doesn't have the properties needed to make long blades. 

Various alloys of copper were eventually developed (in some cases perhaps naturally or accidentally), that had superior properties.  Before the modern era, almost all of these with better tool/weapon performance depended on significant amounts of either tin (Sn) and are generally described as bronzes; or zinc (Zn) and are generally described as brasses.  Bronze is significantly better than copper for tools and weapons; the problem is that it depends on tin, an even harder to get element than copper. 

A quick comparison of elemental abundance in the Earth's crust, from various references:
Iron (Fe): 4.10% to 6.30%
Zinc (Zn): 0.00700% to 0.00790% (from 519x to 900x less common than iron)
Copper(Cu): 0.00500% to 0.01000% (from 410x to 1260x less common than iron)
Tin(Sn): 0.00022% to 0.00023% (from 17826x to 28636x less common than iron)

So, if you adjusted DF's material odds to be representative of average crustal abundance, and then so that you got useful amounts of iron in *every embark*, you'd get useful amounts of copper or zinc in about one of every 700 embarks; and useful amounts of tin in about one of every 23,000 embarks.  The majority of DF players would have never personally generated an embark with copper; and tin-containing embarks, especially those also with copper, would be the stuff of epic threads and legend. 

The value and rarity of tin is what drove a significant fraction of early trade and exploration; and in many cases has shaped modern society at a deep level.  As just one example, the spread of the Phoenician "abjad" which is the ancestor of all major phonetic alphabets was driven partly by their monopoly on the secret of trade with the tin-bearing regions of Cornwall in Britain, a long and treacherous voyage in rowed galleys from their Canaanite homelands on the Eastern shores of the Mediterranean. 

Advanced bronze smiths learned to vary the alloy and hardening content of different parts of a sword to get the best results; the Sword of Goujian is a fascinating example from around 450 BCE.  The majority of the weapon is 80% copper, 19% tin; but the cutting edge is 57% copper, 30% tin, 9% lead, 3% iron; and the reinforcing central ridge is 42% copper, 43% tin, 6% lead, 4% iron, 6% sulfur.  This gave the main blade the resilience and shock absorption of a high-copper alloy, with a much harder and more easily sharpened cutting edge and a much stiffer supporting ridge.  Performance would have been significantly better than a monolithic sword; when you add in the elaborate patterns in multiple alloy colors and engraved writing, this is clearly a ☼Bronze Sword☼ at the least. 

Discovery of the techniques needed to smelt even crude iron to produce marginal weapons was an enormously disruptive game-changer.  Suddenly, instead of having to row over 4,000 miles to make a sword, you just had to find some reddish rocks in your neighborhood. 

Soon enough, smiths started to try some of the techniques used to make better bronze swords, to try and make less crappy iron ones.  Most of these were still inferior to a really good bronze sword, but the raw materials were comparatively abundant.  It quickly became apparent that ores from certain places produced better results, long before analytical metallurgy could say why.  "Sky iron" from nickle-iron meteorites was particularly prized, and localities with particularly useful native alloys developed reputations.  Some of the best attempts were arguably low-grade steel (carburized wrought iron), and were finally a match for bronze.  As technology advanced, iron-using societies swept across Eurasia; societies without iron weapons and tools were marginalized, conquered, or destroyed. 

So, in the most general terms, real-world weapon rankings might go something like this: copper < iron << bronze < complex iron? < complex bronze < primitive steel << good steel < complex steel.  "Complex" in this comparison meaning significant layering and zonal composition differences for different functional parts of the weapon, created by a skilled smith. 

Ready cultural knowledge of the secrets of steel, in times where it is otherwise unknown or at least a tightly-held secret of a few master craftsmen, is by itself enough to give dwarves both a reputation and an economic foundation as the "weaponmakers of the world".  Knowledge of the techniques of magma workshops, allowing the entire chain of steel production to take dramatically less fuel, gives them a significant economic edge even when faced with human societies that have some knowledge of steel; and allows processing of "goblinite" to be practical.  I'm looking forward to the economy improvements that will naturally put various societies and races into a more interesting relationship. 
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2013, 12:17:13 am »

And that was a very interesting wall of text. Thanks for that, I learned a few things there.
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WaffleEggnog

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2013, 01:02:44 am »

Ok guys. Marveling about the usefulness of said metals in history and reading fancy pages of code will not give the true awnser we are all looking for: Which ones kills more Goblins per square Dwarf-body.

I set up few iron V.S bronze tests in the arena to see what happens.

Both teams have grand-master in every combat skill.

Test one:

Team bronze: 3 Dwarves
Bronze battle-axe
Bronze helm
Bronze breastplate
Bronze gauntlets
Bronze greaves
Bronze high boots
V.S
Team Iron: 3 Dwarves
Iron battle-axe
Iron helm
Iron breastplate
Iron gauntlets
Iron greaves
Iron high boots

Results: When I saw one team win with not a single loss, I assumed it was team iron based on what the wiki says, but was surprised to see Team Bronze demolishing Team-Iron 3 kill to nil, albeit sustaining major injuries (each one lost an arm).

I did this again a second time, and as soon as I saw those three Dwarves walking away proudly from the battle, my first thought was "no fucking way". It seems that Team Bronze prevails again with 3 kills to 0! This really went against my predictions and the stats on the wiki! Two bronze Team members suffered minor injuries and one a broken arm and shoulder. Two tests without a single Bronze Team member dying must mean something.

Looks like Team Bronze is onto a good start, but will they be able to keep up the streak and win again in Test Two? We shall see....

Test Two:
(A 1v1 test. Maybe different results this time?)
Team bronze: 1 Dwarf
Bronze battle-axe
Bronze Shield
Bronze helm
Bronze breastplate
Bronze gauntlets
Bronze greaves
Bronze high boots
V.S
Team Iron: 1 Dwarf
Iron battle-axe
Iron shield
Iron helm
Iron breastplate
Iron gauntlets
Iron greaves
Iron high boots

Results: Did this one twice, first time Bronze Team won, second time Iron, third time Iron again. I think they're pretty much evenly matched here. Not sure why I got such one-way results in Test One.

Test Three:

Test Two:
(This test pits 1 Bronze Team member against 2 Iron Team members. I'm going to be honest, I think Iron Team has this one)
Team bronze: 1 Dwarf
Bronze battle-axe
Bronze helm
Bronze breastplate
Bronze gauntlets
Bronze greaves
Bronze high boots
V.S
Team Iron: 2 Dwarves
Iron battle-axe
Iron helm
Iron breastplate
Iron gauntlets
Iron greaves
Iron high boots

Results: I did this one two times, and each time Team Iron won with 0 injuries. Looks like Team Bronze shouldn't get too cocky.



So, my tedious and delicate experiments of letting things kill other things has so far discovered that, in melee combat, Bronze and Iron are very, very close to the same. Someone with more time than me would have to do tons of tests to see which is better.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 01:32:56 am by WaffleEggnog »
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Tarangini

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2013, 11:04:25 am »

Not enough tests to be definitive xD

Also, you need a control group. For properly formatted science is the best science. Did you try iron vs iron and bronze vs bronze?
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SquatchHammer

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2013, 12:01:50 pm »


Hence, if you're having an argument about which would have been more useful in real life, then the answer is that bronze is superior to crude iron, but inferior to well-made steel.  It's all a matter of what quality of metal you can actually produce.



Just for final reference to a book that ENGINEERS REFERENCE FOR MATERIAL PROPERTIES numbers between iron and bronze for their shear is as follows,

Bronze 6.5 106 psi
Iron     9.3 106 psi

There, no more argument.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2013, 03:01:06 pm »


Hence, if you're having an argument about which would have been more useful in real life, then the answer is that bronze is superior to crude iron, but inferior to well-made steel.  It's all a matter of what quality of metal you can actually produce.



Just for final reference to a book that ENGINEERS REFERENCE FOR MATERIAL PROPERTIES numbers between iron and bronze for their shear is as follows,

Bronze 6.5 106 psi
Iron     9.3 106 psi

There, no more argument.
Yes, shear values. Iron is "better" than bronze for edged weapons and tools, but bronze is "better" overall.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2013, 04:01:24 pm »

Shear values don't tell you everything, (and there are more than one type of shear action - the problem with pure iron is its low shear deformity, which means it bends out of shape too easily) since that is only relevant to specific types of actions.  (Mostly "cutting" types of combat, since shear-whatever relates to bending.) 

Blunt combat is based upon density and impact yield/fracture if you're talking about in-the-current-game (and it WILL be revised) combat usefulness.

And for that matter, silver hammers beat bronze and iron alike.  (And look out for morningstars and whips, while you're at it...)  Against other heavily-armored humanoid targets, hammers are the best weapons.  Spears are potent against organ-dependent creatures, especially with poor armor.  Axes are really only useful for those creatures that require cleaving limbs off, and only against those creatures small enough for such a cleaving to take place.

Besides which, once again, we shouldn't even be talking about pure iron, because basically nobody had pure iron during the bronze/dark ages.  All the iron people had were filled with impurities. 

This isn't something that you can settle simply by citing some reference book, there are far more than just one factor involved, and there isn't any single "best" weapon because of how the game has creatures that have very different ways of recording fatal levels of damage.
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Putnam

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 12:17:40 am »

Shield material doesn't matter - if the shield skill activates, a shield will block all damage, regardless of material.  You can make a shield out of balsa wood and it works like cotton candy.   

In fact, you might as well just go for something light, and maybe something that won't burn or melt.
Shield material matters when hitting things with it. Also with dragonfire, iron is more likely to survive being in proximity of it - allowing for equipment salvaging in the event of ☼dragon roast☼.

No, Kohaku was right there. Shields block things regardless of material, even dragonfire. A shield will melt/catch fire only if the glove touching it happens to be on fire.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 12:44:10 am »

Shield material doesn't matter - if the shield skill activates, a shield will block all damage, regardless of material.  You can make a shield out of balsa wood and it works like cotton candy.   

In fact, you might as well just go for something light, and maybe something that won't burn or melt.
Shield material matters when hitting things with it. Also with dragonfire, iron is more likely to survive being in proximity of it - allowing for equipment salvaging in the event of ☼dragon roast☼.

No, Kohaku was right there. Shields block things regardless of material, even dragonfire. A shield will melt/catch fire only if the glove touching it happens to be on fire.

I think Whispers meant "if the whole dwarf is roasted", as in, the shield skill didn't work.  If the shield skill doesn't activate, and the whole dwarf is roasted, at least you can salvage the shield if it's fireproof is what Whispers is saying.

... Of course, if you make the shield out of wood, it doesn't particularly need salvaging, since you can just make another easily.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2013, 01:40:15 am »

Shield material doesn't matter - if the shield skill activates, a shield will block all damage, regardless of material.  You can make a shield out of balsa wood and it works like cotton candy.   

In fact, you might as well just go for something light, and maybe something that won't burn or melt.
Shield material matters when hitting things with it. Also with dragonfire, iron is more likely to survive being in proximity of it - allowing for equipment salvaging in the event of ☼dragon roast☼.

No, Kohaku was right there. Shields block things regardless of material, even dragonfire. A shield will melt/catch fire only if the glove touching it happens to be on fire.

I think Whispers meant "if the whole dwarf is roasted", as in, the shield skill didn't work.  If the shield skill doesn't activate, and the whole dwarf is roasted, at least you can salvage the shield if it's fireproof is what Whispers is saying.

... Of course, if you make the shield out of wood, it doesn't particularly need salvaging, since you can just make another easily.
What? No. Wooden shields are only justified when they've been either (a) Taken from elves, or (b) made from wood that was taken from elves.
No self-respecting dwarf would ever make a shield out of wood that was not directly related in the death or serious injury of at least one elf.
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jellsprout

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 07:07:21 am »

Iron has a shear yield of 155000 and a shear fracture of 310000. Bronze has a shear yield of 172000 and a shear fracture of 241000. For an edged weapon to be able to cut through armor, both the shear fracture and yield of the weapon need to be higher than the shear fracture and yield of the armor. In this comparison, iron has a higher shear fracture than bronze but a lower shear yield. This means that neither weapon is able to cut through armor of the other material. Both metals have both values higher than copper and silver and lower than steel and adamantine, so compared to those metals they are also equal.
Edged attacks that can't penetrate armor are converted to blunt damage. I think punches and kicks also use the material of the gauntlets and boots to determine the damage, but I haven't confirmed this yet. Blunt attacks use density to determine their damage, so that should be used to decide which is better. Bronze has a density of 8250, iron of 7850. It appears that bronze is slightly better for edged and blunt weapons, gauntlets and boots, but iron is better for other pieces of armor. However, the differences are negligible. Both metals can be considered equal in vanilla.

However, it becomes interesting when you include brass. It has a shear yield of 83000 and a shear fracture of 290000. Its shear yield is lower than that of both iron and bronze, but its shear fracture is higher than that of bronze, but lower than that of iron. So while brass is equal to bronze, it loses against iron. Brass loses to steel and adamantine and wins against copper and silver, so it is also equal to bronze on those points.
If you play a mod which includes brass weapons, armor or creatures, iron is the better choice, but in vanilla the two are equal. Only if you have a brass artifact breastplate or something does it matter if the opponents use iron or bronze, but that is so rare a situation that it can be ignored.
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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2013, 06:58:37 pm »

I'll throw my 2c in here.

Bronze is better at embark. Or rather, bronze ores are. They're cheaper than iron, are smelted more quickly and for less fuel, and they are more versatile. They still make reasonable weapons, even armour, but you get more of them more quickly which is rather important in some embarks. There is also the fact that you don't have to smelt the ores into bronze if you don't want to, you can always go for copper instead. Copper makes some of the best blunt weapons and crossbow bolts, adding a layer of versatility to bronze ores that iron just doesn't have.

This is strictly for embark time. You sometimes want that quick ramp up or versatility that copper and tin ores provide. The rest of the time, bronze and iron are both reasonable, although with iron having the upper hand simply due to it essentially being "soon-to-be-steel", where-as bronze gets stuck as bronze (or slightly better bolts and hammers if you really want to use the copper this way).

As an interesting historical fact, a lot of bronze in early history was a form of arsenide bronze. It was created due to the levels of impurities in the ores and rocks that the people smelting copper were using, and was more of a happy smelting error than anything. Little or no tin was used, people simply realized that some patches of copper ore made better "copper" tools and weapons (which was actually an unintended form of bronze). No rowing 4000 miles was needed, just luck in the types of rocks you were digging up.
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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2013, 07:10:12 pm »

What? No. Wooden shields are only justified when they've been either (a) Taken from elves, or (b) made from wood that was taken from elves.
No self-respecting dwarf would ever make a shield out of wood that was not directly related in the death or serious injury of at least one elf.
What are you, an elf?

sambojin

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2013, 07:32:30 pm »

Like many things in DF, it's more about being pre-related to killing elves than gaining your things from the result of it. If my dwarves with their bronze axes and wooden shields have a nap on a wooden bed, take a drink from a wooden barrel, spend a bit of time dodging wooden training spears, then go off and kill some elves, I'm fine with it.

Considering that cutting down the trees for all this historically pisses off the elves makes it dwarfier, not less.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Iron vs Bronze [Arguement thread]
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2013, 11:13:06 pm »

What? No. Wooden shields are only justified when they've been either (a) Taken from elves, or (b) made from wood that was taken from elves.
No self-respecting dwarf would ever make a shield out of wood that was not directly related in the death or serious injury of at least one elf.
What are you, an elf?
Like many things in DF, it's more about being pre-related to killing elves than gaining your things from the result of it. If my dwarves with their bronze axes and wooden shields have a nap on a wooden bed, take a drink from a wooden barrel, spend a bit of time dodging wooden training spears, then go off and kill some elves, I'm fine with it.

Considering that cutting down the trees for all this historically pisses off the elves makes it dwarfier, not less.
I'm offended by this.

Or I would be if I wasn't used to the Bay12 forums.
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Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.
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