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[Phlum]

A buddy and I got into an argument about the differences between bronze and iron. Wondering what the forum goers would have to say on this.

I know DF says that bronze is better than iron, (perhaps not steel) but perhaps there are things DF is missing here (rust is a given, perhaps some raws?)

[chaosgear]

Iron beats bronze. Common RPG logic.
...wait, no, that's copper. Bronze beats iron. Common RPG logic. I think.

[smakemupagus]

In DF iron is better than bronze for edged weapons, but not by a wide margin.

In earth history, bronze came earlier than iron because its components could be extracted from ore at lower temperature, and whether one was "better" than the other at a given time and place varied depending on the metallurgy experience of various civilizations.  It took a while for iron alloying and working techniques to catch up to the long standing expertise that people had with bronze.

[IcyTea31]

WARNING: !!SCIENCE!!

Iron's raws:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[INORGANIC:IRON]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:iron]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten iron]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling iron]
   [DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1]
   [BUILD_COLOR:0:7:1]
   [MATERIAL_VALUE:10]
   [SPEC_HEAT:450]
   [MELTING_POINT:12768]
   [BOILING_POINT:15150]
   [ITEMS_WEAPON][ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED][ITEMS_AMMO][ITEMS_DIGGER][ITEMS_ARMOR][ITEMS_ANVIL]
   [ITEMS_HARD]
   [ITEMS_METAL]
   [ITEMS_BARRED]
   [ITEMS_SCALED]
   [SOLID_DENSITY:7850]
   [LIQUID_DENSITY:6980]
   [MOLAR_MASS:55845]
   [IMPACT_YIELD:542500] Was 1080000, but just using 3.5x tensile multiples for everything until better numbers are available, which might not be likely
   [IMPACT_FRACTURE:1085000]
   [IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:319]
   [COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:542500]
   [COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:1085000]
   [COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:319] bulk modulus 170 GPa
   [TENSILE_YIELD:155000]
   [TENSILE_FRACTURE:310000]
   [TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:73] young's modulus 211 GPa
   [TORSION_YIELD:155000]
   [TORSION_FRACTURE:310000]
   [TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:189]
   [SHEAR_YIELD:155000]
   [SHEAR_FRACTURE:310000]
   [SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:189] shear modulus 82 GPa
   [BENDING_YIELD:155000]
   [BENDING_FRACTURE:310000]
   [BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:73]
   [MAX_EDGE:10000]
   [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:GRAY]

Bronze's raws:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[INORGANIC:BRONZE]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:bronze]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten bronze]
   [STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling bronze]
   [DISPLAY_COLOR:6:4:0]
   [BUILD_COLOR:6:4:0]
   [MATERIAL_VALUE:5]
   [SPEC_HEAT:435]
   [MELTING_POINT:11868]
   [BOILING_POINT:14140]
   [ITEMS_WEAPON][ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED][ITEMS_AMMO][ITEMS_DIGGER][ITEMS_ARMOR]
   [ITEMS_HARD]
   [ITEMS_METAL]
   [ITEMS_BARRED]
   [ITEMS_SCALED]
   [SOLID_DENSITY:8250]
   [LIQUID_DENSITY:8020]
   [MOLAR_MASS:80000]
   [IMPACT_YIELD:602000]
   [IMPACT_FRACTURE:843500]
   [IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:547]
   [COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:602000]
   [COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:843500]
   [COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:547] no data, used 110
   [TENSILE_YIELD:172000]
   [TENSILE_FRACTURE:241000]
   [TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156] 110
   [TORSION_YIELD:172000]
   [TORSION_FRACTURE:241000]
   [TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156]
   [SHEAR_YIELD:172000]
   [SHEAR_FRACTURE:241000]
   [SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156] no data, used 110
   [BENDING_YIELD:172000]
   [BENDING_FRACTURE:241000]
   [BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156]
   [MAX_EDGE:10000]
   [STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:BRONZE]

With these, we can make the following conclusions:

Iron is:
More valuable
More resistant to heat
Lighter weight
More resistant to blades
Less resistant to blunt force

Bronze is:
Less valuable
Less resistant to heat
Heavier weight
Less resistant to blades
More resistant to blunt force

Conclusions:
Iron makes better armour, but bronze makes better blunt weapons and bolts. Bladed weapons are just as good, though iron's lesser weight allows for slightly more attacks per timeframe.

[Lemunde]

There's other things to consider with bronze. If you're on a map with very little or no coal and you haven't gotten around to breaching the magma sea yet then that leaves you with charcoal which you may want to use sparingly. 1 unit of charcoal will allow you to produce twice as much bronze as it would iron.

Production is a little bit faster too. If you need to get a faster start on your military I'd definitely go with bronze. If possible, save that iron to make steel.

[Mesa]

This is another reason that makes DF epic - almost nothing is a straight upgrade (case in point - candy makes great edge weapons, but terrible blunt weapons and silver is god-tier material for blunt weapons but terrible for almost everything else)

[chevil]

I like to make all of my armor out of bismuth bronze if i can because I like the color.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Iron is:
More valuable
More resistant to heat
Lighter weight
More resistant to blades
Less resistant to blunt force

Bronze is:
Less valuable
Less resistant to heat
Heavier weight
Less resistant to blades
More resistant to blunt force

Conclusions:
Iron makes better armour, but bronze makes better blunt weapons and bolts. Bladed weapons are just as good, though iron's lesser weight allows for slightly more attacks per timeframe.

We can go further with this information. The Dwarf who has access to only iron and bronze should equip:
Iron helmet.
Iron mail shirt x3.
Bronze breastplate.
Iron Greaves.
Iron high boot x2.
Iron Gauntlets x2.

Weapons - bronze
Shield - bronze (or iron in the face of dragonfire).

[NW_Kohaku]

Shield material doesn't matter - if the shield skill activates, a shield will block all damage, regardless of material.  You can make a shield out of balsa wood and it works like cotton candy.   

In fact, you might as well just go for something light, and maybe something that won't burn or melt.

In terms of real-life properties, the DF version of iron is pure iron, which is idiotic to bring into battle because if weapon deformation were modeled, that would mean your swords would bend like clay in combat.

Real-life crude iron weapons were actually more often crude because of having too many impurities that were never removed from the iron ore than having no impurities at all.  This meant that crude iron was often brittle and had to be cold-forged.  This, in turn, meant that crude iron weapons (like those of more common soldiers on the medieval battlefield) were actually commonly shattering when striking a hard enough target, like a knight in full steel armor. 

Bronze, comparatively, makes lower quality weapons than steel, especially, but bronze armor, in spite of being softer and more malleable than steel, is more useful in combat than crude iron.

Hence, if you're having an argument about which would have been more useful in real life, then the answer is that bronze is superior to crude iron, but inferior to well-made steel.  It's all a matter of what quality of metal you can actually produce.

DF is a special case because it tries to model a lot with its various metrics, but several critical pieces of real physics are missing - weapons and armor don't deform and merely shatter (which is why creatures made of fire are like creatures made of tissue paper, and can have their fire "broken" by a stiff wind) only to be returned to whole for the next attack for the purpose of blocking damage.  It also doesn't have any sense of the concept of the purity of the ore or what impurities do to the chemical properties of a metal.  All ores just produce pure metals because that's the simplest thing to model.

[Bloax]

We can go further with this information. The Dwarf who has access to only iron and bronze should equip:
Bronze helmet.
Iron mail shirt x3.
Bronze breastplate.
Iron Greaves.
Iron high boot x2.
Iron Gauntlets x2.

Weapons - bronze
Shield - iron

Cuts to the head either don't matter or sever it, and while they can cut through, then blunt force to the head that smashes your skull through your iron helmet and tears the brain are still found much more frequently.

[Caldfir]

The only real reason iron overtook bronze in history was that iron is pretty much everywhere, so as long as you know how to make hot enough fires to smelt the ore, iron is very easy to procure.  By comparison, tin is quite rare, and doesn't naturally occur near copper deposits (not commonly anyway).  That means that a military making equipment from iron will have an abundant supply of metal, while a military with only bronze will have metal as a luxury material. 

From an RPG perspective, you want equipment upgrades as a way to motivate the player, so equipment materials frequently fall into this role, despite the fact that this is in no way reflects reality.  It is nice that dwarf fortress attempts to make it less a point that one metal is vastly superior to another, and I can only imagine that will get better when equipment durability is handled in some way. 

[Shinziril]

I tend to grade the armor metals based on broad edged weapon penetration, since that's the most dramatic effect.  A battle axe made of a better metal in DF will slice through armor a decent percentage of the time, while one made of the same or worse will do basically nothing besides maybe causing a few bruises.  Following this logic, and actual testing, bronze and iron are equivalent- a bronze axe cannot penetrate bronze or iron armor, and neither can an iron axe.  A steel battle axe will penetrate both.  There might be some slight differences for other weapons vs armor scenarios, but they're honestly small enough that I don't bother all that much. 

[Loud Whispers]

We can go further with this information. The Dwarf who has access to only iron and bronze should equip:
Bronze helmet.
Iron mail shirt x3.
Bronze breastplate.
Iron Greaves.
Iron high boot x2.
Iron Gauntlets x2.

Weapons - bronze
Shield - iron

Cuts to the head either don't matter or sever it, and while they can cut through, then blunt force to the head that smashes your skull through your iron helmet and tears the brain are still found much more frequently.

It's a bronze helmet. Although in retrospect...
Having a spear, claw, bite, sword, axe, bolt, arrow or some other particularly sharp object strike the face and tear through the skull scrambling the brain is indeed more common than blunt force trauma at the impact of a warhammer.
I suppose iron helmets would be advantageous if you only expected your Dwarves to face iron wielding goblins, but in any case I'd prefer a bronze helmet. Good crash helmet.

Shield material doesn't matter - if the shield skill activates, a shield will block all damage, regardless of material.  You can make a shield out of balsa wood and it works like cotton candy.   

In fact, you might as well just go for something light, and maybe something that won't burn or melt.

Shield material matters when hitting things with it. Also with dragonfire, iron is more likely to survive being in proximity of it - allowing for equipment salvaging in the event of ☼dragon roast☼.

[Caldfir]

If all that is true, then the superior material for constructing shields would be nether-cap-wood (or fireproof leather, but that's harder to come by).  It is light, and cannot burn.  Weight really matters quite a lot in more recent versions, though I'm not sure how the combat/move speed split will affect things. 

[Loud Whispers]

If all that is true, then the superior material for constructing shields would be nether-cap-wood (or fireproof leather, but that's harder to come by).  It is light, and cannot burn.  Weight really matters quite a lot in more recent versions, though I'm not sure how the combat/move speed split will affect things.

On the other end is copper or steel. One is cheap and heavy, the other heat resistant and although less dense, good for smashing.