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[SkyeAuroline]

"from the start"

I'm kind of disappointed that the whole idea was immediately dismissed on the basis of "it's not NT so it's not SS13". Would SS13 have been any different if we were working for the Terrans from the start? For Vey Med? For a completely different corporation? We don't even work for Nanotrasen in SCOM and you went to great lengths to get the mode to something approaching working, so obviously that's not the problem with the idea. Would there be an objection to an independent station if we'd been independent from the start? If not, then why should there be one now? Why not judge the idea on its own merits instead of by basis of "this is how it's always been done so this is how it should always be"?

A mode is one thing. The setting of the whole game system is another. Of course it would have been different i it had been a different setting from the start.

Nanotrasen is a known entity that people play with, play against, and are familiar with. Doing away with it seems needless, complicated, and "out of character." I mean, as a mode that grows in popularity and sophistication until it replaces the original in the players' minds and hearts, I could understand the transition, but, I literally learned of this today from Aedel's post, which seems like a sudden announcement out of the blue. people don't like sudden announcements out of the blue like: "hey guys? that thing you've been doing and enjoying for years? Yeah, we're done with that now. Get over it, man up, and move on."

Why would you be surprised at all that there is at least initial strong pushback? Is it because you have been playing with the idea for some time and are excited,

But I can tell you that pretty much everyone who was talking about it and brainstorming ideas was super hyped to actually do it.

so why shouldn't everyone else be (even though they have no idea this is coming)? Why not take some time and sell the idea instead of complaining that people don't like your new toy as much as they like their old one. I mean, and if this was done in this thread I missed it: why not invite the players into the discussion before having dumped a load of effort into it because a small group of people "in the know" have decided they want to run with it?

Since I've been playing we've switched maps, twice I think, switched from tgcode to baycode, witched to objectiveless antags, and switched to supermatter from Singulo and switched out most of the playerbase. It's a dramatically different game now than it was when I started, so if this goes through, it won't break my heart, but my initial reaction is still: why bother? it seems pointless, unnecessary, and likely to add unexpected complications. and your response hasn't affected that at all.

If this sounds harsh, I apologize. I mean no personal disrespect to you or anyone involved with this idea.

I don't use this forum at all, so no, I haven't talked about it in this thread. Corai and I have been going over it with people in OOC for... 3 days now, I think. We've started using Nien's IRC for idea brainstorming. We've run multiple in-game votes (at least one in favor and one against, there may have been more votes I wasn't here for). We've asked for input from the players. We've been discussing this. This is not out of the blue. If you played on the server or read the server forums, you would know this. No one said we're going to tell people to "get over it, man up, and move on". Last I checked, the threshold for even CONSIDERING passing this on to Glloyd was somewhere around 80-90% "yes" in player polls, running for a week straight. So if the server isn't in love with the idea, it isn't going to happen.

I haven't been playing with the idea for some time. I've been playing with the idea since Corai brought it up to me less than a week ago. I'm not surprised there's strong initial pushback, I'm surprised there's pushback from Glloyd with no reasonable basis. He's put up one mode already, soon at least two, that doesn't involve Nanotrasen in the slightest. There is absolutely no ground to stand on that "not having Nanotrasen" is the problem unless SCOM and Galactic Conquest are scrapped entirely. That said, SCOM is also universally reviled, which may also say something about our development focus.

Our server-specific lore is a godawful mess that needs a full rewrite. Some people want an independent station, some don't. So we're putting it to a vote. Is that too complicated or too much to ask? It may be "pointless, unnecessary, and likely to add unexpected complications", but so is stacking on unwanted modes and features while core problems go unaddressed. If we can consider and actually do one, why not at least consider the other? I'm completely killing any chance of getting you to want this with my response, but do you get my frustration here?

[werty892]

I'm honestly confused at this now. First you say that lore is not important... that whats important is the gameplay. Now you're saying that the lore is important.

Corai and I have been going over it with people in OOC for... 3 days now, I think. We've started using Nien's IRC for idea brainstorming. We've run multiple in-game votes (at least one in favor and one against, there may have been more votes I wasn't here for). We've asked for input from the players. We've been discussing this. This is not out of the blue. If you played on the server or read the server forums, you would know this.

Three days is a really short time for something like this. Some people have real responsibilities, and obligations.

I'm not surprised there's strong initial pushback, I'm surprised there's pushback from Glloyd with no reasonable basis. He's put up one mode already, soon at least two, that doesn't involve Nanotrasen in the slightest. There is absolutely no ground to stand on that "not having Nanotrasen" is the problem unless SCOM and Galactic Conquest are scrapped entirely.

No reasonable basis? The initial idea for this came from Bay, and they have had a pretty shitty history with renames. All they do is fucking rename random shit all the time to random crap. And the fact is, this is just a rename, the terran stuff, that adds nothing to the gameplay whatsoever, except a reskin for some uniforms. Yaaaaaaaaay. All that is, is extra work for no reason. Like I said earlier, either go all out or don't.

That said, SCOM is also universally reviled, which may also say something about our development focus.

1. You're in no position to dictate what gets dev time. This is basically a fun side project for everyone involved. 2. S-COM does not work well because of SS13 mechanics, and the fact that the missions are the same every time. Everything else is great.

Our server-specific lore is a godawful mess that needs a full rewrite. Some people want an independent station, some don't. So we're putting it to a vote. Is that too complicated or too much to ask? It may be "pointless, unnecessary, and likely to add unexpected complications", but so is stacking on unwanted modes and features while core problems go unaddressed. If we can consider and actually do one, why not at least consider the other? I'm completely killing any chance of getting you to want this with my response, but do you get my frustration here?

God awful mess? U wot m8? It's pretty good at explaining all our specific stuff. Everything else is bay. Honestly Skye, it's Glloyds server, and you show up with all your ideas that you've done nothing to implement. All this represents is work for everyone involved in the server management. You've shown up and basically gone 'everything is shit, fix it naow' and offered to do nothing. You want people to take you seriously, do the lore write up, do the spiriting, and then tell people about it. You can't submit a pull request with nothing to pull, in coding terminology.

[Ozarck]

Skye
You are right. I don't get on the other forum much. Almost all of the new about ss13 that I get, comes from this thread, which is replied to nearly daily, whereas, each time I've been on the other forum, I've seen little activity, and little about stuff like this. And yes, I haven't been playing recently. It's pretty unfair to demand daily log time in the game to be kept abreast of something like this. I'm sure there have been times in which you also have been absent from the game for extended periods, for whatever reason.

There is indeed ground to stand on that "Not having Nanotrasen is the problem," even with the two modes that remove it. I may not agree with that sentiment, but for many games, and for many gamers, setting is important, and developed, consistent worldbuilding adds to a richer overall experience. A mode is justified in branching off, because it is a deviation from the standard, whereas what has been proposed is an erasure of the standard.

I concede the point that you are not making the overhaul by fiat (i.e. without player input). I misunderstood your post in the other forum's thread, with all the "we will be doing this" and "that will be happening" kind of statements, which made it feel like the change was a mostly decided on thing.

While I agree that there is a lot of unhappiness concerning SCOM, I believe there are a couple of issues with calling it universally reviled. 1) people were still voting it into gameplay when I stopped playing a while back, and remaining on to play the rounds, so someone must think it's doable. 2) I heard, back then, as many complaints about almost all the other gamemodes as well - exception being generally ignored gamemodes, rather than any that were specifically popular, and 3) SCOM was developed in large part as a response to months and months of players asking if it could be made a game mode, after having played some successful events based off it. This mode, I believe was a player desired addition. and finally, SCOM is a mode that is voted for or against every round, whereas the changes we are discussing will be essentially permanent replacements. It is a category error to compare the two.

I do somewhat understand your frustration. And no, your post does not completely eliminate any chance I would like the change. first, I wouldn't like the change anyway, and second, if I come back, and the change has happened, well, I'll roll with it. Hell, as I said before, I doubt I would even notice IC, what with the familiar gameplay pattern of our light medium rp server likely to go unchanged as a result. The issues we have now will be the issues we have after. the only difference I see occurring is that the unathi will have IC reason to act as a separate enclave within the general population from the start.

[bluwolfie]

"from the start"

I'm kind of disappointed that the whole idea was immediately dismissed on the basis of "it's not NT so it's not SS13". Would SS13 have been any different if we were working for the Terrans from the start? For Vey Med? For a completely different corporation? We don't even work for Nanotrasen in SCOM and you went to great lengths to get the mode to something approaching working, so obviously that's not the problem with the idea. Would there be an objection to an independent station if we'd been independent from the start? If not, then why should there be one now? Why not judge the idea on its own merits instead of by basis of "this is how it's always been done so this is how it should always be"?

A mode is one thing. The setting of the whole game system is another. Of course it would have been different i it had been a different setting from the start.

Nanotrasen is a known entity that people play with, play against, and are familiar with. Doing away with it seems needless, complicated, and "out of character." I mean, as a mode that grows in popularity and sophistication until it replaces the original in the players' minds and hearts, I could understand the transition, but, I literally learned of this today from Aedel's post, which seems like a sudden announcement out of the blue. people don't like sudden announcements out of the blue like: "hey guys? that thing you've been doing and enjoying for years? Yeah, we're done with that now. Get over it, man up, and move on."

Why would you be surprised at all that there is at least initial strong pushback? Is it because you have been playing with the idea for some time and are excited,

But I can tell you that pretty much everyone who was talking about it and brainstorming ideas was super hyped to actually do it.

so why shouldn't everyone else be (even though they have no idea this is coming)? Why not take some time and sell the idea instead of complaining that people don't like your new toy as much as they like their old one. I mean, and if this was done in this thread I missed it: why not invite the players into the discussion before having dumped a load of effort into it because a small group of people "in the know" have decided they want to run with it?

Since I've been playing we've switched maps, twice I think, switched from tgcode to baycode, witched to objectiveless antags, and switched to supermatter from Singulo and switched out most of the playerbase. It's a dramatically different game now than it was when I started, so if this goes through, it won't break my heart, but my initial reaction is still: why bother? it seems pointless, unnecessary, and likely to add unexpected complications. and your response hasn't affected that at all.

If this sounds harsh, I apologize. I mean no personal disrespect to you or anyone involved with this idea.

I don't use this forum at all, so no, I haven't talked about it in this thread. Corai and I have been going over it with people in OOC for... 3 days now, I think. We've started using Nien's IRC for idea brainstorming. We've run multiple in-game votes (at least one in favor and one against, there may have been more votes I wasn't here for). We've asked for input from the players. We've been discussing this. This is not out of the blue. If you played on the server or read the server forums, you would know this. No one said we're going to tell people to "get over it, man up, and move on". Last I checked, the threshold for even CONSIDERING passing this on to Glloyd was somewhere around 80-90% "yes" in player polls, running for a week straight. So if the server isn't in love with the idea, it isn't going to happen.

I haven't been playing with the idea for some time. I've been playing with the idea since Corai brought it up to me less than a week ago. I'm not surprised there's strong initial pushback, I'm surprised there's pushback from Glloyd with no reasonable basis. He's put up one mode already, soon at least two, that doesn't involve Nanotrasen in the slightest. There is absolutely no ground to stand on that "not having Nanotrasen" is the problem unless SCOM and Galactic Conquest are scrapped entirely. That said, SCOM is also universally reviled, which may also say something about our development focus.

Our server-specific lore is a godawful mess that needs a full rewrite. Some people want an independent station, some don't. So we're putting it to a vote. Is that too complicated or too much to ask? It may be "pointless, unnecessary, and likely to add unexpected complications", but so is stacking on unwanted modes and features while core problems go unaddressed. If we can consider and actually do one, why not at least consider the other? I'm completely killing any chance of getting you to want this with my response, but do you get my frustration here?

You know this kind of just proves something I've been thinking for a while now, the people in charge of the creative direction of the server are very out of touch with the people who PLAY on the server. I find it funny how you say that Ozarck isn't on the server (because of your OOC dicsussions) yet you don't even use this forum nor have any idea what the public opinion is. I agree with Oz in that these ideas kind of just sprang out of nowhere to us and that it seems like a pointless change.. I bet you don't even know me or the type of character I tend to RP (Usually the Clown, 9 times out of ten if there's a Clown it's me.. Except I've been in the middle of a move lately, part of which was during the voting period for my admin application but I suspect since it seems many of you guys are out of touch that even if I were active during that time it wouldn't of been noticed)

99% of the time I see Stefender on and a mentor or two, any other admins are rare. And I don't see you all too often either. I think it would help if the community (player base) was included more often, it would def help get people on board with new ideas.

[Ozarck]

99% of the time I see Stefender on and a mentor or two, any other admins are rare. And I don't see you all too often either. I think it would help if the community (player base) was included more often, it would def help get people on board with new ideas.

Acemuto was on a lot during the last period i played significantly. He still on there much?

[SkyeAuroline]

Three days is a really short time for something like this. Some people have real responsibilities, and obligations.

...Which is why we're putting in at LEAST a week's worth of discussion and another week's worth of player-poll voting, so that we can account for people having responsibilities and obligations? I highly doubt a significant portion of the server has zero free time to read through a 2-3 page thread one time in two weeks.

No reasonable basis? The initial idea for this came from Bay, and they have had a pretty shitty history with renames. All they do is fucking rename random shit all the time to random crap. And the fact is, this is just a rename, the terran stuff, that adds nothing to the gameplay whatsoever, except a reskin for some uniforms. Yaaaaaaaaay. All that is, is extra work for no reason. Like I said earlier, either go all out or don't.

Personally I've wanted an independent station basically since I started on SS13, I've never really liked Nanotrasen. But as I mentioned before, Corai brought it up to me, not the other way around. If it came from Bay for Corai, then sure, it did. I hate Bay's renames. Credits should be credits, plasma should be plasma, so on and so forth. Hence why I made the specific note that your earlier writeup about gameplay benefits is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. But we've barely even had the chance to discuss anything, because the server is permanently dead and Glloyd logs on once every 4-5 days or so to respond to 2 messages and then go offline again. We can't get some huge plan that everyone agrees on when we can't get people together to even talk about it on short notice. I want the lore to actually matter in-game and have an actual in-game effect, yes.

1. You're in no position to dictate what gets dev time. This is basically a fun side project for everyone involved. 2. S-COM does not work well because of SS13 mechanics, and the fact that the missions are the same every time. Everything else is great.

I won't argue your first point, because you're right, and I'm pretty sure I'm acknowledging that. Second point... you're the only person in a while that I've heard call SCOM "great". It kills our population. We consistently lose 8-10 players every time it's voted for. On a server that's barely averaging 15, and is going to crash even further once summer's over and the kids are back in school, that's a big deal.

God awful mess? U wot m8? It's pretty good at explaining all our specific stuff. Everything else is bay. Honestly Skye, it's Glloyds server, and you show up with all your ideas that you've done nothing to implement. All this represents is work for everyone involved in the server management. You've shown up and basically gone 'everything is shit, fix it naow' and offered to do nothing. You want people to take you seriously, do the lore write up, do the spiriting, and then tell people about it. You can't submit a pull request with nothing to pull, in coding terminology.

I've been working on the map for the ship section of this, I've been working on the spriting (speaking of which- six days now I've been waiting for a list from Glloyd of sprites he was specifically requesting for me to do, which I was supposed to be receiving the same night I was told about it. I can't do much when I don't know what I'm being asked to.) I'd write lore, but I was told directly by Glloyd that EVERYTHING currently present in our lore has to stay exactly as it is now. Which is... not conducive to fixing existing lore, the entire POINT of writing.

That said, between this and what WAAAC has been telling me about the better of his two brig revisions being rejected because it's "changing too much", I don't really see a reason to contribute. Is modifications or improvements just going to be an instant button for "reject"? Or do you guys not actually want us to have anything improved? I don't know.

---

Oz, your post showed up while I was typing a reply, so I'm responding to it separately in the same one.

You are right. I don't get on the other forum much. Almost all of the new about ss13 that I get, comes from this thread, which is replied to nearly daily, whereas, each time I've been on the other forum, I've seen little activity, and little about stuff like this. And yes, I haven't been playing recently. It's pretty unfair to demand daily log time in the game to be kept abreast of something like this. I'm sure there have been times in which you also have been absent from the game for extended periods, for whatever reason.

Yeah, forums have been dead. No one uses them. I'm trying to get people to change that by having discussion there instead of here, an unrelated and unaffiliated board with a single thread for discussing everything. Same with Nien's IRC for the server, and the wiki that I put up and (so far partially) started porting over articles for. As far as "absent from the game for extended periods", I'm pretty sure the only time I haven't been on Urist at least once or twice a week is when we died in December and when I had originally quit SS13 altogether.

There is indeed ground to stand on that "Not having Nanotrasen is the problem," even with the two modes that remove it. I may not agree with that sentiment, but for many games, and for many gamers, setting is important, and developed, consistent worldbuilding adds to a richer overall experience. A mode is justified in branching off, because it is a deviation from the standard, whereas what has been proposed is an erasure of the standard.

Everything developed with Nanotrasen stays. We're just not affiliated with them and it has no direct effect on us. With how rapidly the server has shifted into "low RP at best" since Jacob left and the December population crash, existing NT lore doesn't even have an effect. I make an effort, a few other people do, but we've got more low-RP newfriends than we do people who actually care about the lore. There's barely a "standard" left to erase.

I concede the point that you are not making the overhaul by fiat (i.e. without player input). I misunderstood your post in the other forum's thread, with all the "we will be doing this" and "that will be happening" kind of statements, which made it feel like the change was a mostly decided on thing.

Yeah, I probably should've written things more in a "we WOULD be doing this" or "that WOULD be happening" instead. It's all a big "what if".

While I agree that there is a lot of unhappiness concerning SCOM, I believe there are a couple of issues with calling it universally reviled. 1) people were still voting it into gameplay when I stopped playing a while back, and remaining on to play the rounds, so someone must think it's doable. 2) I heard, back then, as many complaints about almost all the other gamemodes as well - exception being generally ignored gamemodes, rather than any that were specifically popular, and 3) SCOM was developed in large part as a response to months and months of players asking if it could be made a game mode, after having played some successful events based off it. This mode, I believe was a player desired addition. and finally, SCOM is a mode that is voted for or against every round, whereas the changes we are discussing will be essentially permanent replacements. It is a category error to compare the two.

1. I don't know how long it's been since you last played, but as I mentioned earlier, we lose on average 8-10 players when SCOM gets voted. Usually rounds start with 4-5 players and maybe reach 8 maximum active.
2. Given that a lot of mode changes have been discussed, these complaints are still around, but kind of productive- Scr and I went over how to fix Vampire, the three rev modes are getting fixed/combined, etc etc.
3. That's the problem- it was a player desired addition because it came from events. Glloyd runs great events. Don't get me wrong there. Absolutely phenomenal. But those events do not translate over to "good modes played without admin guidance or benefit" whatsoever. It's a good concept, but like Werty said, it's heavily limited by SS13 mechanics as a whole. There's no way to legitimately fix it.

Hell, as I said before, I doubt I would even notice IC, what with the familiar gameplay pattern of our light medium rp server likely to go unchanged as a result. The issues we have now will be the issues we have after. the only difference I see occurring is that the unathi will have IC reason to act as a separate enclave within the general population from the start.

First part's one of the points I'm trying to get at here. Half the people who play won't even notice or care. The other half will have opinions one way or another, but that's the point of voting on it. As far as the Unathi go, with the exception of Nega10 (who is a FANTASTIC Unathi player), they almost all already ignore Unathi lore as it is; what has you so convinced that they'd suddenly change and follow it properly?

[bluwolfie]

99% of the time I see Stefender on and a mentor or two, any other admins are rare. And I don't see you all too often either. I think it would help if the community (player base) was included more often, it would def help get people on board with new ideas.

Acemuto was on a lot during the last period i played significantly. He still on there much?

I see him a fair bit but not as much as Stefender.

[SkyeAuroline]

99% of the time I see Stefender on and a mentor or two, any other admins are rare. And I don't see you all too often either. I think it would help if the community (player base) was included more often, it would def help get people on board with new ideas.

Acemuto was on a lot during the last period i played significantly. He still on there much?

Ace is on daily. I'm signed into Urist for close to 8-10 hours a day and active probably 4-6 hours a day. Blu and I are apparently not in overlapping time zones.

edit: Worth noting that while Stef is on more, he doesn't actually interact unless someone ahelps. No proactiveness at all. Zty, Corai, and Ace have all been good on the proactive front so far, thankfully.

[hops]

Honestly I don't care if the ship becomes independent at all. Maybe NT could even become the eviller good Syndicate and occasionally send terrorists agents to sabotage the intervene in the ship's operation.

[bluwolfie]

99% of the time I see Stefender on and a mentor or two, any other admins are rare. And I don't see you all too often either. I think it would help if the community (player base) was included more often, it would def help get people on board with new ideas.

Acemuto was on a lot during the last period i played significantly. He still on there much?

Ace is on daily. I'm signed into Urist for close to 8-10 hours a day and active probably 4-6 hours a day. Blu and I are apparently not in overlapping time zones.

edit: Worth noting that while Stef is on more, he doesn't actually interact unless someone ahelps. No proactiveness at all. Zty, Corai, and Ace have all been good on the proactive front so far, thankfully.

Yeah, just ignore what I said about that. My bad

[Ozarck]

There are reasons that most of the players are newbies, but I won't go into that.

So SCOM is broken. My points concerning it stand

Having most of the players (again, most being newbies anyway) have no opinion / not following / not caring about the lore isn't really a support for changing the lore. Rather, it is a symptom of something deeper. and if the pop doesn't care about the current lore, why would they care about the revision? And if the only people who care about the lore are long termers, and most of them seem opposed (not sure if that's the case, bear with me for argument's sake), then why change? For the sake of change? Because you, Skye, personally don't like NT? because bay said so? Honestly, I haven't seen from you a particular reason why this would be a good change, anymore than you claim to see from (I forget who) why it would be a bad change. The only person yet who made a positive case or the change was werty, and he seems opposed anyway.

I see even more of why you are frustrated at the rejection, if this has been a pet goal of yours "from the start." You finally have a chance to make something your way, and people (including Glloyd) are saying "no thanks."

A week of discussion for a vote like this is still fairly short. Especially if you respond to dissent with one word answers (I'm thinking of your response to Aseaheru on the first page of the thread over there).

I get that you want to boost discussion on the other forum. But to do so, you need to come to this forum and announce the discussion. Otherwise only the people already over there regularly are going to have a clue. I personally am a little disappointed that that forum hasn't taken off like it was hoped it would, but I have no real input on how to get its numbers up, short of locking this thread. and locking this thread would likely get me to forget all about the game for months at a time.

[scrdest]

Yeah, forums have been dead. No one uses them. I'm trying to get people to change that by having discussion there instead of here, an unrelated and unaffiliated board with a single thread for discussing everything.

U wot.

This thread (well, two, I believe, since we switched hosts and so threads IIRC) predate Urist. That is mostly because these threads - and discussion therein - led to the conception of the server.

This was, and is, the official Bay12 server. There obviously is The Name Issue, since the Other Bay originated in the same way even further back, but nonetheless - this is a Bay12 server, hosted by a Bay12er, coded by Bay12ers (insofar as Urist content is concerned), headminned by a Bay12er, and with most of staff coming from here too, especially if you count deadmins.

[SkyeAuroline]

Yeah, forums have been dead. No one uses them. I'm trying to get people to change that by having discussion there instead of here, an unrelated and unaffiliated board with a single thread for discussing everything.

U wot.

This thread (well, two, I believe, since we switched hosts and so threads IIRC) predate Urist. That is mostly because these threads - and discussion therein - led to the conception of the server.

This was, and is, the official Bay12 server. There obviously is The Name Issue, since the Other Bay originated in the same way even further back, but nonetheless - this is a Bay12 server, hosted by a Bay12er, coded by Bay12ers (insofar as Urist content is concerned), headminned by a Bay12er, and with most of staff coming from here too, especially if you count deadmins.

And it's no longer relevant. Maybe if we used the forums more, then this thread would stop being the point of discussion for every single thing. Just a thought.

[Graknorke]

It's no longer relevant despite being significantly more active?
lol k

[Iceblaster]

* Iceblaster returns from the shadows.

Hooonestly, I would like a change of lore, for reasons stated earlier. More chances for RP that occurs naturally and allows for non-antags to be the center of attention should something happen, like a doctor strike as stated before. It would allow many people who honestly have left the games early because nothing happens to try to have something to do, by expanding their faction's influence on the station by RPing with people and discussing things. Anything to encourage RP is good in my book.

Pluuus, Megacorp dystopias aren't my cup of tea, much less being in the center of it, pretty much