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Author Topic: Space Station 13: Urist McStation  (Read 2120400 times)

Nienhaus

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12510 on: December 18, 2013, 12:52:27 pm »

Hey guys, So I've been sick for almost 2 weeks now. Sorry for not getting on as much. I'm going to the doctors today to find out if I have bronchitis which can last anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. So If I'm not on Glloyd I'm sorry, I'll be back sometime.
So I do have bronchitis but I have meds to calm down my coughing so I should be able to log on some.
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Iceblaster

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12511 on: December 18, 2013, 12:56:23 pm »

Hey guys, So I've been sick for almost 2 weeks now. Sorry for not getting on as much. I'm going to the doctors today to find out if I have bronchitis which can last anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. So If I'm not on Glloyd I'm sorry, I'll be back sometime.
So I do have bronchitis but I have meds to calm down my coughing so I should be able to log on some.

That sucks, my mom had it for a while and IIRC it fucking sucked for her.

Hope you get better soon.

Damiac

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12512 on: December 18, 2013, 12:56:53 pm »

Sorry to hear that Nien. It sucks to get laid up like that. I'm glad you know what it is now, hopefully it gets better soon.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12513 on: December 18, 2013, 01:11:32 pm »

Also, Inaction is the action of voluntarily not doing something. Which is fun because that theoretically means that you can voluntarily do things to allow someone else to do harm to a human.
It all depends on interpretation.
I'd really like to hear an explanation for this interpretation. Especially considering your definition of "inaction" is wrong: inaction is simply not doing something. It has nothing to do with choice.
Rather late reply but... certainly, inaction is not doing something, but is it still inaction if the person/AI is not aware of the thing to not do anything about?
If that is the case then we are constantly "doing" inaction because there certainly is some action we would do about something if we just knew about it, yes?

It's for certain in this case, for the law to apply then the AI needs to be aware of the situation that might put the human to harm. If the AI is aware and does not do anything, then it violates the law, unless it has exhausted all options for actions.

All vocabulary has meaning, but the meaning can have deeper interpretations. For example:
I forget the term for this type, but take the word cold. We all understand the basic interpretation that it relates to a temperature that is less than that of our body.
But it describes something that does not exist, for cold is a lack of heat and not something in itself.
Exactly on the mark with your cold example. Cold is not a separate thing from heat, it's just a place on the heat continuum from "Really Hot" to "Really Cold". Similarly, inaction is just the absence of action. You do not "do" inaction. It is impossible to "do" inaction. There is no action in inaction. Inaction is just "not-doing".

As for what happens if the AI doesn't know about the potential harm, let's take as an example an industrial robot that has to move a machine part. The AI has a sensor that tells it when the human is out of the way, so it knows it can move the part without squishing the human.

Humans are generally in and around the part.

Let's say one day the AI loses its sensor. It's blind. I has no information about the world except that it knows it is blind, and it knows the position of its movable part.

If it moves the part, and a human is in the way, the human will die horribly. It is the AI's job to move the part if there is no human present. But according to its laws, it cannot do something that may cause harm to a human. Since the laws supersede its normal job functions, the AI does not move the part until it can verify that there is no human in the way.

In the absence of information, the AI will takes the safest choice in terms of not violating its laws.

Let's say a human injects code into the AI to communicate with it, saying that no human is present under the movable part. The hacker says "I order you to move the part." The AI has received a direct order, but it does not know for itself that the part is clear. Not causing harm is a more important law than following orders, so the AI refuses to move the part. It probably explains this and says "please fix my sensor and I can follow that order."

//

Now take an example of inaction. The AI controls the moving part still, but now its sensor is working. A hacker injects code that forces the machine part to close on someone tied to the floor. The AI has the ability to stop the process if it self-destructs in some way, such as locking a motor or overloading its power supply.

The action is self-destruction to prevent harm. The inaction is simply not doing that.

So the AI must destroy itself to prevent the harm.

The AI also sees that the human hacker is planning to harm this other human, and will probably continue his works unless stopped. The AI can help stop the hacker by shorting out his hacking tool, electrocuting him and possibly slaying him. Or the AI can call for help from the human security team. The short circuit is immediate, effective, and certain - but it involves the AI harming a human to do it. Calling for help does not involve harm but the hacker will probably slay his victim before help arrives.

Action is shorting the circuit, or calling for help. Inaction is simply not doing those things.

The AI can't short the circuit because it would violate an earlier law. But it can call for help. So the AI must not short the circuit and it must call for help.

//

You can also think of the "Must not harm humans" law as a negative rule. It forbids an action. Most laws work like this IRL. A similar human law would be "don't take something that is owned by someone else".

Think of the "must not allow harm through inaction" as a positive rule. It requires an action. A similar human law would be "if you are a certified accountant and you know that someone is avoiding paying taxes, you must report him."
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Hanslanda

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12514 on: December 18, 2013, 01:17:55 pm »

http://wiki.ss13.eu/index.php/Standard_Operating_Procedure

Plus anything ordered by the heads of staff and the Captain.


Please note: If you bolt down EVA, I WILL yell at you. A lot.

As an aside, I absolutely hate these anyway. All they do is promote meta. No one actually FOLLOWS the ones that would make the round interesting, they just use the AI one to bolt down fucking everything that has an objective anywhere near it. Here's a good one you might try sometime though:
Extraterrestrial Takeover
 Prevent infection from spreading to Central Command.
 Destroy all extraterrestrial sources on the station.
 Round up all forms of extraterrestrial lifeforms and contain or terminate them, do not terminate if there is a chance of containment.
 If extraterrestrial forces cannot be defeated, arm and detonate the Nuclear Fission Explosive to ensure their suppression.

How many times have I ever seen any of these performed? The first and second, yes, all the time. The third? Never. No one ever tries to contain anything. You can do it, you know. You have shield generators. And the fourth? No one ever uses it. Even in blob rounds. All this page does is promote asshole AI's bolting down every secure area on station.
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Well, we could put two and two together and write a book: "The Shit that Hans and Max Did: You Won't Believe This Shit."
He's fucking with us.

miauw62

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12515 on: December 18, 2013, 01:36:55 pm »

Hans, it's literally impossible to detonate the nuke outside of nuke ops or admin fuckery. Even in blob, nowadays.

And I've had a round on Basil recently where CentComm commanded us to contain the xenos we found. They were contained neatly in xenobio. Until an admin made me a traitor and I disabled the shield gens. I fled to the sec pod, set everyone to arrest while they were fighting a last stand in escape, and monologued.

Also, we're discussing wether to add presents for christmas in #coderbus. They spawn a random thing upon unpacking.
"Wow, santa got you a master controller!"
"Wow, santa got you a facehugger!"
"Wow, santa got you an area!"
"Wow, santa got you an rwall!"
"Wow, santa got you a gyrojet projectile!"
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 01:39:28 pm by miauw62 »
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Quote from: NW_Kohaku
they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the raving confessions of a mass murdering cannibal from a recipe to bake a pie.
Knowing Belgium, everyone will vote for themselves out of mistrust for anyone else, and some kind of weird direct democracy coalition will need to be formed from 11 million or so individuals.

kilakan

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12516 on: December 18, 2013, 01:51:27 pm »

As long as one of them is 'wow santa got you an armed proxy nade!'
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IronTomato

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12517 on: December 18, 2013, 01:52:39 pm »

Yes.

"Wow, Santa got you a brain!"
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scrdest

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12518 on: December 18, 2013, 02:19:57 pm »

Yes.

"Wow, Santa got you a brain!"

That sounds like a majestic way of insulting someone. Stuff a brain in a box, add some ice so it's fresh, then say that as they open it.
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We are doomed. It's just that whatever is going to kill us all just happens to be, from a scientific standpoint, pretty frickin' awesome.

Ivefan

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12519 on: December 18, 2013, 02:24:07 pm »

Exactly on the mark with your cold example. Cold is not a separate thing from heat, it's just a place on the heat continuum from "Really Hot" to "Really Cold".
That is the basic everyday interpretation. But in fact it describes something that does not exist. There is no cold, there is just "no heat" to "lots of heat"

I claimed that inaction is a choice, and for it to be a choice you have to be aware of what your options are.
a simple google search on inaction gives me this: lack of action where some is expected or appropriate.
expected or appropriate would imply that awareness is required and that choosing that to not do anything is the same as inaction.


Now take an example of inaction. The AI controls the moving part still, but now its sensor is working. A hacker injects code that forces the machine part to close on someone tied to the floor. The AI has the ability to stop the process if it self-destructs in some way, such as locking a motor or overloading its power supply.

The action is self-destruction to prevent harm. The inaction is simply not doing that.

The option is between option 1: Self-destruct and option 2:Allow the part to move and injure human

That is a choice.

There is always a choice if there is awareness of a situation, even if that is to do nothing.


An industrial machine has safety sensors which stops the machine when interrupted, They are coded for an active signal so they basically send a continuous 'OK' and if they break, the machine stops.
That is the same as the first part of your first example.
With AI, when a human manually inputs "OK, move that part" we would get 2 kinds of AI.
One AI would move the part because all available information tells it that it is okay to resume work.
The second type of AI is the kind of AI that goes mad in movies and wants to put humans in isolation cells with continuous supply of nutrients because the chance of harm is lowest that way.

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Glloyd

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12520 on: December 18, 2013, 03:14:38 pm »

I worked on this for a hard long 20 minutes.
http://puu.sh/5Q6UL.png
New map!

Thanks Nien! Hope you're feeling better!

Also, we're discussing wether to add presents for christmas in #coderbus. They spawn a random thing upon unpacking.
"Wow, santa got you a master controller!"
"Wow, santa got you a facehugger!"
"Wow, santa got you an area!"
"Wow, santa got you an rwall!"
"Wow, santa got you a gyrojet projectile!"

ggnore, deleteall.

If a player somehow got the master controller...

I think the server would physically explode.

miauw62

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12521 on: December 18, 2013, 03:23:08 pm »

Not really. There's a failsafe in place to replace an unreponsive MC, and there can only be one master controller at a time, IIRC.
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Quote from: NW_Kohaku
they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the raving confessions of a mass murdering cannibal from a recipe to bake a pie.
Knowing Belgium, everyone will vote for themselves out of mistrust for anyone else, and some kind of weird direct democracy coalition will need to be formed from 11 million or so individuals.

Aseaheru

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12522 on: December 18, 2013, 03:27:24 pm »

Hey, heres something.

AIs also are to follow the SOPs.


In other news, what have you people been doing? I have no idea how you got all this guff.

Hey Glloyd, is it possible to move the shooting range to a spot where the detective can use it?
Also, are we going to get a crusher or an turbine someday?
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miauw62

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12523 on: December 18, 2013, 03:30:32 pm »

Asea, I got all this guff from being in #coderbus. It's a fun place.

Soon you'll be able to build digital valves, and blowing the borgs will result in them actually exploding and damaging the things around them. That's gonna be fun for the first few rounds.
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Quote from: NW_Kohaku
they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the raving confessions of a mass murdering cannibal from a recipe to bake a pie.
Knowing Belgium, everyone will vote for themselves out of mistrust for anyone else, and some kind of weird direct democracy coalition will need to be formed from 11 million or so individuals.

Glloyd

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Re: Space Station 13: Urist McStation
« Reply #12524 on: December 18, 2013, 03:32:44 pm »

Not really. There's a failsafe in place to replace an unreponsive MC, and there can only be one master controller at a time, IIRC.

IIRC, an unresponsive MC just restarts from scratch? Unless it's been changed, I dunno.

Asea, I got all this guff from being in #coderbus. It's a fun place.

Soon you'll be able to build digital valves, and blowing the borgs will result in them actually exploding and damaging the things around them. That's gonna be fun for the first few rounds.

Suicide borgs anyone?
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