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[Kael von Wolfe]

Loosely in response to scrdest's post, and from personal experience ... Can we get some clarity on what level of meta is appropriate?

On one end of the spectrum, I've been interrogated, brigged and then beaten to death by security for possessing a cult tome and acting suspiciously.

On the other, I'm forever seeing captain's performing cloning, clowns setting up engines etc, etc.

Not complaints - just observations. This is by far and away my preffered server for SS13 goodness. Anyone care to weigh in?

[Gamerlord]

NO meta. But I think doing jobs outside your profession is okay, as there are manuals onstation. I think the level of meta that scrdest indicated is unacceptable. In that situation, I think a trial would be needed to even brig them for one minute.

[miauw62]

I wasn't going to permabrig him, and we were litteraly the only people alive. except for the pAI. What should I have done, organized a trial with me as the prosecutor and the (super-biased because he killed his master) pAI as judge? Or the other way around, with no way for the pAI to acces the proof? There was literally NO way to organize a trial. I also saw him walk out of Engineering right afer the pAI announced that his master was assaulted by the captain and found Isook's body. I also found his prints on an emag and a box of .357 shells, and everybody else was dead or not responding. There was no other person that could have done it. Also, he didn't even try to think up an excuse, he just said "I'm the captain, release me." and I replied "No" (This is not exactly the sentences we used). I put him in permabrig to store him. I could also have put him in the normal brig and set the timer to ten minutes. It wouldn't really have made a difference. Besides, there's plenty of places to hide for vending machines and they hardly do a lot of damage. The straightjacket was only for a very short time so I wouldn't have to worry about you running around everywhere while I stripped you and did some things.

Also, I was the HoP, so having some cuffs on me did make sense, especially after I yelled "Hello?" over the radio in the arrivals shuttle a few times and got zero answer.

I threw him in permabrig while I grabbed the detective's scanner and scanned the emag and box of .357 shells and went to rescue the pAI and Isook. As I mentioned earlier, it was just a way to store him until I could manage things, because, as I mentioned earlier too, I was the only person that wasn't the pAI or the captain that apparantly murdered someone. I'll give you that I had no way of knowing that we were the only people alive, but nobody ever responded to my radio messages.

I was also going to space him on the shuttle under influence of the pAI that was constantly yelling to murder him, which may have been wrong, but due to the thing with velocity and all that I didn't manage to drag him anywhere. I agree that murdering him may have been wrong.

As I said, I was the HoP, which is basically a mini-captain, so I assumed recognizing the most common traitor item ever would make sense.

Even more, the pAI gave me quite some information on the situation.

Unrelated edit to prevent clutter: I'm fine with just about anyone setting up the singularity because it's pretty much a must if you want a fun round, and anybody that's a head or has a medbay job should probably know how to clone if we lack a geneticist.

[kisame12794]

I think that the heads should know what a cult tome looks like, or at least the HoS and Captain would. Once a cultist infestation has been confirmed, the other security officers would be notified to arrest anyone with the tome. Now, people doing different jobs is alright with me because we have a low pop server, and we don't always have engineers, or genetisits, or what have you. There is a book on cloning in genetics, so I can assume the captain reads it before cloning someone.

[Aklyon]

While there is a 'activate all power' button in the admin panels, its much more interesting from an IC standpoint (and sometimes funnier) to have people setup the engine or the solars, you don't get to see a clown (intentionally) in space everyday.

[BigD145]

NO meta. But I think doing jobs outside your profession is okay, as there are manuals onstation.

There are manuals but having a manual and knowing the tools involved are two different things. A clown is not likely to know a HONK from a screwdriver, but a scientist knows how to use a welder. Traitors, on the other hand, would likely get some training to fulfill their objectives.

Clowns setting up the singularity? That is all the meta.

[scrdest]

I wasn't going to permabrig him, and we were litteraly the only people alive. except for the pAI. What should I have done, organized a trial with me as the prosecutor and the (super-biased because he killed his master) pAI as judge? Or the other way around, with no way for the pAI to acces the proof? There was literally NO way to organize a trial. I also saw him walk out of Engineering right afer the pAI announced that his master was assaulted by the captain and found Isook's body. I also found his prints on an emag and a box of .357 shells, and everybody else was dead or not responding. There was no other person that could have done it. Also, he didn't even try to think up an excuse, he just said "I'm the captain, release me." and I replied "No" (This is not exactly the sentences we used). I put him in permabrig to store him. I could also have put him in the normal brig and set the timer to ten minutes. It wouldn't really have made a difference. Besides, there's plenty of places to hide for vending machines and they hardly do a lot of damage. The straightjacket was only for a very short time so I wouldn't have to worry about you running around everywhere while I stripped you and did some things.

Also, I was the HoP, so having some cuffs on me did make sense, especially after I yelled "Hello?" over the radio in the arrivals shuttle a few times and got zero answer.

I threw him in permabrig while I grabbed the detective's scanner and scanned the emag and box of .357 shells and went to rescue the pAI and Isook. As I mentioned earlier, it was just a way to store him until I could manage things, because, as I mentioned earlier too, I was the only person that wasn't the pAI or the captain that apparantly murdered someone. I'll give you that I had no way of knowing that we were the only people alive, but nobody ever responded to my radio messages.

I was also going to space him on the shuttle under influence of the pAI, which may have been wrong, but due to the thing with velocity and all that I didn't manage to drag him anywhere.

As I said, I was the HoP, which is basically a mini-captain, so I assumed recognizing the most common traitor item ever would make sense.

Even more, the pAI gave me quite some information on the situation.

You weren't going to permabrig me? Weird, you only coming back when I (admittedly IC in OOC) posted I'm dying - BTW we need an intercom in Permabrig - and I've already been heavily burned, and unlike you, without armor which tends to protect from those, so the vending machines were dangerous.

You only took the straitjacket off after I complained, and being 'worried about me running around' - if you aren't worried about the prisoner potentially escaping, it means the prisoner hasn't a single chance to escape, which in turn means lolstraitjacketroundwin.

.357's proved exactly nothing as they weren't, as you were quick to assume, obtained via PDA. I've just wanted to test what I heard about modifying weapons, which resulted in the revolver blowing up in my face, and Captain can have lethal-only weapons as exemplified by his, you know, laser.

I don't see what logical connection is there between being given silent treatment by the staff and having cuffs. If you were supposed to have them, they would spawn in your office. And HoP is not 'mini-Captain'. Captain is Captain, mini or otherwise, and HoP is traditionally supposed to take over when there's NO CAPTAIN. Giving yourself all access at the round start is absurdly powergamey.

Emag can be recognized as illegal, but there is no connection to Syndicate itself - it's an ID with an electromagnetic strip quickly hacked together. So illegal, but unlike, say, Red Spacesuit not obviously Syndicate.

I don't see why spacing would be any better than outright shooting me to death out of blue because someone else's pAI decided to be nuts. The situation sure would look fun for CentComm investigation: you sitting alone in the escape shuttle with a gun and a dead Captain, with evidence unsecured and, due to you stripping me bare-handed, all the evidence you had - traces from clothes - bearing fingerprints from both you and me. You could have just as well murdered me, usurped command, murdered everyone who ended up dead and changed into HoP clothes and took off on shuttle.



---
As for Captain cloning - this is one singular case which I find excusable, since if no-one is playing Genetics (or Botany) there is no way to bring people back into the round.

[Vactor]

Loosely in response to scrdest's post, and from personal experience ... Can we get some clarity on what level of meta is appropriate?

In my opinion context and behavior matter.  People should play with the intent of making a fun and enjoyable round for their fellow players, the performance of their individual character should be secondary to that.  Antagonists exist in the game to provide tension and conflict to drive the narrative of the round, for the enjoyment of everyone, getting found out and apprehended is potentially part of that.

I think that part of what makes this server good is that we have players who are playing to have fun with each other, not necessarily playing for "wins".

I've waded through various logs regarding complaints about players, and I have seen people inadvertently Metaing themselves in response to suspected Metaing by other players.  The hunt and accusations of Meta seems to have caused more problems and hurt feelings than any Metaing has caused.

Ultimately it requires an admin present to be able to evaluate a situation neutrally and with full information.  If an admin is not online, default to playing nicely with each other, and don't play when you're stressed or angry.  In my reviews of the logs, community policing is generally incorrect in its assessment (due to lack of full information), and causes more problems than the suspected infraction. 

On the flip side of that, if a round begins to devolve into an OOC fight about your actions, and no admin is present, it is far better for you to be honest in OOC possibly exposing IC details than to try to lie and attempt to dole out your own form of vigilante IC justice to people who have offended you.  Again, play nicely with each other, we are all friends here, trust your fellow players.

[Donuts]

BTW we need an intercom in Permabrig

Just no. We can't let the clown spam WGW over the radio from the Brig.

[BigD145]

As for Captain cloning - this is one singular case which I find excusable, since if no-one is playing Genetics (or Botany) there is no way to bring people back into the round.

Is anyone else in science or medical? They should read the manual on cloning. A chef should probably be able to bungle through botany. Other than that, you're out of the round. It sucks, but this is where a pAI or admins should step in to continue fun.

A station bounce radio should be placed near permabrig in case it is a temporary holding cell while shit is falling down around your ears. An intercom is too easily abused. It should be security's choice to let a prisoner talk about what's going on around them. Does the radio work through a door?

[Kael von Wolfe]

As for Captain cloning - this is one singular case which I find excusable, since if no-one is playing Genetics (or Botany) there is no way to bring people back into the round.

The incident I remember involved the CMO being shoved out of the way to allow the captain into genetics to clone someone. I also often see Heads/people with access barging into medical and helping themselves to medkits while a trained doctor stands there, watching them. Once. when playing a traitor doctor, I insist that my target has appendicitus. Queue him finding an analyser, diagnosing himself and telling the *trained medical professional* that he's absolutely fine, and that me trying to lure him to surgery was pretty much a crime.

I'm not sure if you can say emags aren't instantly recognisable as traitor items, but decide that tomes are only owned by evil cultists. Like I said, I'd really love some admin guidance - maybe a list of objects and the alert level associated, like Baystation have?

I'm just a bit miffed that many of my attempts to RP my way into/out of situations fail to terribly as people vary between extremes in terms of meta. Currently, the meta seems to favour abusing game mechanics rather than clever traitoring - tossing a bomb at a target seems much more likely to succeed, while me trying to convince my target that they should come with me to surgery ends very badly.

[miauw62]

I didn't even give myself all-acces at the start of the round. Besides, I gave more reasoning. If nobody replies to your questions over the radio when you arrive, it seems to make sense to go get some handcuffs. I was also going to retrieve you from the permabrig, but I hurried there when you said that you were dieing. You also OOCly said that you were dieing, and it appeared that you attempted to set up a trap because you were holding a broken bottle and placed a grille. Which insinuates that YOU were metagaming here, eh?

Also, "worried of you running around" was just that I didn't want to have to deal with a handcuffed prisoner that can't go anywhere anyway running around.

Also, I guess sorry for having a slightly different understanding of the lore than you.



Also, permabrig should have a listen-only intercom.

Also, I should use also less often.

[scrdest]

BTW we need an intercom in Permabrig

Just no. We can't let the clown spam WGW over the radio from the Brig.

I know, but something like a sec-only frequency, or a button that lets you broadcast for, say, 30 seconds then has a cooldown. Otherwise permabrigging is the law enforcement equivalent of welding someone in a padded, steel box and dumping the box into a ditch - you cannot communicate, you cannot escape, nobody cares if you die, you cannot participate in the round PERIOD.

I didn't even give myself all-acces at the start of the round. Besides, I gave more reasoning. If nobody replies to your questions over the radio when you arrive, it seems to make sense to go get some handcuffs. I was also going to retrieve you from the permabrig, but I hurried there when you said that you were dieing. You also OOCly said that you were dieing, and it appeared that you attempted to set up a trap because you were holding a broken bottle and placed a grille. Which insinuates that YOU were metagaming here, eh?

Also, "worried of you running around" was just that I didn't want to have to deal with a handcuffed prisoner that can't go anywhere anyway running around.

Also, I guess sorry for having a slightly different understanding of the lore than you.

I were dying. And I did try to disarm you. If I succeeded, I'd heal myself, otherwise get cuffed and stuffed into permabrig but still cuffed. If not for OOC, I'd be killed by a stupid goddamn soda can. And I don't see what you mean by metagaming in this case.

Meta, as I understand it, is your character thinking in game-logic (i.e. that, say, attaching a glass shard to a stick is impossible no matter what, that only people ready at round start get picked for traitor, that if you let someone cuffed stand still, he will uncuff himself in exactly 2 minutes...) rather than real world-logic (Why cannot a traitor arrive late to the station? If not for it not being coded, if you actually were on a space station in the future, you would think anyone arriving at the station at any time might be a traitor. Or that this eccentric religious guy has suicidal tendencies, rather than being a cultist of an evil space god - which would be more likely in the real world?)

Since you cuffed me, why were you worried about me moving? Not like I could do anything without uncuffing, which requires the direct opposite of moving.

And way to be passive-aggressive. What next, 'sorry you're a dick'?

[Glloyd]

WHAT DID I JUST SAY. If you have a problem, PM the admins, keep it out of the thread.

[10ebbor10]

Just a note on meta job changes, many things can be explained by roleplaying.

Maybe the clown used to be an engineer before. Maybe the AI talks him through. Many things can happen.