Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[BigD145]

I think Fayrik is talking about holding to the basic laws AND being influenced by players to act in certain ways not demanded by any laws. Acting like a Japanese Schoolgirl does not conflict with Asimov. I don't think it even conflicts with Antimov.

[Psieye]

It's the difference between acting IN THE ABSENCE of a law, acting ACCORDING to a law and acting AGAINST a law. I don't think anyone disagrees that an AI can't do extra things in the absence of a specific law, provided that act doesn't violate any existing laws.

[Fayrik]

Are you saying if someone purges you as an AI, then puts in Antimov laws, you're just going to ignore them?

Did you just entirely ignore what I said?
I'm saying that laws tell you the core rules of the role and nothing more. If you want laws to tell you how to act in situations then to properly take on any form of AI I'd need anything from 20 to 200 laws active at any one time.

Also, just to prove how useless the whole Japanese Schoolgirl chip argument is, Asimov Law 2... That said, even as a P.A.L.A.D.I.N machine, you're not exactly going to understand why you wouldn't want to act like a Japanese Schoolgirl when someone tells you to.
AIs are Computers. Computers are naive. That's why I hate people reciting the laws at me when I play Silicon roles. I'm a computer, you don't have to tell me I can't disobey your order, because computers are incapable of disobeying orders.

[Donuts]

I find it amusing that we keep comming back to ai behaviour discussions. Bay12 must have another kind of mindset than other ss13 forums.

Yeah I am ready for this to be over.

Make the Japanese Schoolgirl board a thing!
If our demands are not met, we WILL continue discussing this!

I must agree. Time to finish what we started!

[miauw62]

I'd recommend AI players to ignore "Don't be a Japanese Schoolgirl" commands. Makes it much less hilarious.

E: Also, butchering Poly gives you a cracker

[Hanslanda]

OK stun tools in general are ridiculously OP.

One touch with ANY, you're fucked. The guy can beat you to death easily from then on. I'd have killed Rodger when I stunned him, but as captain (and the only security), it was basically impossible without people complaining (rightly) about bad RP. He had no such limitations, and so, *zap* BEATBEATBEATBEATBEATBEAT.

When in doubt, run the fuck away and hide in a large group of people. Stun items are MEANT to be OP. Otherwise combat is 'run around in circles and miss each other til you're out of ammo, then hope you're the first person to push the other guy down so you can beat his brains in.' The combat in this game works two ways: Stun/Murder or Run around like a jackass/murder slowly.

[Damiac]

Oh. I guess I just misunderstood what you meant.  Yeah, obviously if you needed a law to be able to do anything, AI wouldn't be much fun to play.  All I was saying is you can't break a law, not that you can't decide on your own what to do when a law doesn't say anything one way or the other.


I agree with you Fayrik, I hate when people try to dictate to the AI in game how to follow its laws.  As much as I want to have a clear, sensible policy in place for how the AI is supposed to work with various laws, in game I generally assume the AI player knows their job, and leave them to it.  After the round, if the AI murdered me, and wasn't an antag, i might make a stink, but not during the round.

On an unrelated topic:

OK stun tools in general are ridiculously OP.

One touch with ANY, you're fucked. The guy can beat you to death easily from then on. I'd have killed Rodger when I stunned him, but as captain (and the only security), it was basically impossible without people complaining (rightly) about bad RP. He had no such limitations, and so, *zap* BEATBEATBEATBEATBEATBEAT.

When in doubt, run the fuck away and hide in a large group of people. Stun items are MEANT to be OP. Otherwise combat is 'run around in circles and miss each other til you're out of ammo, then hope you're the first person to push the other guy down so you can beat his brains in.' The combat in this game works two ways: Stun/Murder or Run around like a jackass/murder slowly.

Yeah, what he said. Except he forgot the stun/cuff option, or the even better stun/cuff/murder

[Hanslanda]

OK stun tools in general are ridiculously OP.

One touch with ANY, you're fucked. The guy can beat you to death easily from then on. I'd have killed Rodger when I stunned him, but as captain (and the only security), it was basically impossible without people complaining (rightly) about bad RP. He had no such limitations, and so, *zap* BEATBEATBEATBEATBEATBEAT.

When in doubt, run the fuck away and hide in a large group of people. Stun items are MEANT to be OP. Otherwise combat is 'run around in circles and miss each other til you're out of ammo, then hope you're the first person to push the other guy down so you can beat his brains in.' The combat in this game works two ways: Stun/Murder or Run around like a jackass/murder slowly.

Yeah, what he said. Except he forgot the stun/cuff option, or the even better stun/cuff/murder

I simplified it. Basically, if they stun you and DON'T instantly murder the crap out of you, you have a chance. Just switch your intent to disarm and hope you're quicker on the click than they are once you stand up. And that you knock them down. But really, best way to not die is not get stunned, by stunning them first.

If this game was all about it's combat, it would be called Space Stunlock 13

[Damiac]

Or Worst Game Ever... IN SPACE

Tvtropes not linked to prevent insanity

[miauw62]

That was a cool. Chaplain makes him a little RPcult, his convert starts murdering people, both cultists are killed, we save all the corpses and bring them on the escape shuttle.

Really nice.

[Damiac]

Killing someone not in self defense or as antag = griefing. It's right there when you join the server.  Please adminhelp it, and PM it to the admins.
It's best not to call people out on the forums, just for the sake of avoiding a big fight on the forum, and getting it locked.  Same deal for OOC, just let the admins know, and let them handle it from there. 

[scrdest]

I found they guy that killed me and several others...

Wasn't even an antag

Needless to say, I now hate RP cults.

EDIT: Thank you Gridrick. You went on a murder spree, and I quote, 'OOC: GridRick: I was serving the god of Death and infidels must die'

This was NOT a cult round. This was an RP cult formed by the Chaplain (not this guy)

Extremely stupid turn of events. I was just doing the ordinary creepy chaplain-ing and I happened to try to convert the SINGLE PERSON on the station who did not know that killing as non-antag is bad form, excuses nonwithstanding. For the record, I tried to stop the killing and try cloning Captain, eventually, but got killed by the traitor.

[wlerin]

Laws ARE the AI

No, they are not. They are constraints on the AI's actions, not a definition of the AIs personality nor even necessarily of the AIs goals. That *might* be why you have such a problem with just letting the status quo continue.

[Nick K]

This was quite the action packed round for me. So, the story:

- You are a scientist
- Also: traitor! Steal the HoP's jumpsuit
- Hmm, only 5 people on. Still, I'm not an especially good traitor so I'm not sure how to proceed.
- I feed some slimes while I mull it over.
- There's me, geneticist, assistant, chaplain, cook. Should probably have emagged in at this point, but I'm not sure how safe it is.
- Captain shows up. He is BRIAN BLESSED. I request and am granted promotion to Research Director
- No miner so R&D isn't great.. slimes are a bit slow to breed.. maybe I could force-borg someone and make them my slave. I'm quite a new player so this might help me avoid the usual humiliation every time I end up facing down security.
- Start making a cyborg body. Hear over the radio someone broke into the armoury.
- Hear some reports over the radio that I attacked someone in medbay. What!? I haven't done anything even slightly illegal! Looks like another traitor is after me. I still have no idea what was happening at this point.
- Leave the lab to make myself visible. Hopefully someone is disguised as me or something and people will realise I'm wearing different clothes. Medbay is quiet though. Go to the bar and call for the captain. The assistant is with me
- Begin formulating a cunning sentence to put my codewords on the radio and find the other traitor.
- Don't finish it because the assistant whips out an energy gun. Stuns me. Turns it to kill and blasts me to crit
- Drags me to maintenance and stabs out my eyes with a screwdriver.
- I'm feeling annoyed by this cause it looks like round over. The traitor seems to be assassinating me so he'll dispose of the body and I've also heard that eye-stabbings can destroy the brain and stop cloning (not sure if this is true though).
- Dead. But, he just leaves me there.
- The captain shows up. I am saved! He takes me to cloning. I start thinking maybe the geneticist is after me using UI to change his appearance, but he clones me properly.
- As usual the whole die/cloned/healed process takes ages and I've not even done any traitoring yet.
- Get back on radio at last. Hear on the radio that the chaplain attacked someone with a hatchet.. talk about a cult.. someone says the captain is dead though I may be mixing up the order when I heard these
- Some Erick guy (a late joiner? seems to be a doctor) asks me to come with him to stop the cult. He gives me a straight-jacket and I already have a flash in my stuff. He has a syringe gun
- Mention in OOC of "rpCult". I am not too happy with this cause getting murdered early in the round is not great fun as a traitor who hasn't done any traitoring yet.
- We go to the chapel. There's blood and a dead body. The chaplain and assistant are there and stun Erick. I flash the assistant but it doesn't work. They cuff me and start telling me to convert. I play along and ask them IC not to kill me
- Some poor new player shows up as HoS. There's a fight and I sneak out to escape where I finally get the handcuffs off. This must have taken me nearly 10 minutes because I kept getting jostled and having to restart. I later find out that the HoS was killed. This is the only security presence the entire round.
- Leg it to medbay. I see that the 2nd syringe gun is there, but I can't get it at this point because I don't have access. The geneticist helps me break into chemistry where I start making chloral.
- This took a while cause we had to break down the reinforced windows with extinguishers. Erick and the cook are both there, but the assistant shows up, stuns Erick and leaves with him. I expect to be killed here, but he ignores me. Mistake
- Made 60 units of chloral.  Grab the syringes. I try to break into med storage but need a wrench to get rid of the tables
- Also spawn a parapen. I was hoping to avoid using them cause I feel I've been overusing pens & emags but I need something I know how to use here.
- Go to robotics. A roboticist has arrived. I tell her to hide there and the geneticist also comes to hide with us when I call over the research channel
- get the wrench and head to medbay with the geneticist to open doors.
- Get into genetics research... the chaplain is on the other side of the glass with an energy gun! He's standing over a dead body! The geneticist wisely legs it. This is where the chaplain was going to clone the guy, but of course I have no way of knowing that at this point.
- Some rp. I don't think he can get through.. he tells me I should convert and that the penalty otherwise is death
- No way am I converting to the cult. They've killed the captain and will surely both be executed or permabrigged. I don't want to share their face, but I decide not to say that to the loony with a gun.
- The chaplain opens the door! I quickly lie and say I'll convert
- He starts to pull me out of medbay. I guess I look like a harmless scientist
- Pen him
- Inject him with chloral
- I'm not sure how long this will last and I don't trust myself to win a fight given how unrobust I am (and by proxy, how bad a fighter my IC scientist is)
- Also, I have a plan!
- Beat his head in with the butt of the energy gun
- Search him. As expected he has the captain's ID which he used to open the door to genetics
- Drag him to robotics
- The plan: borg him and use the borg to scrag the other cultist. Borg that one too. No-one will consider this suspicious given their cult killed the captain. Emag them both and use the power of 2 secborgs to claim my objective and force the shuttle call
- Tell the roboticist to make the chaplain a cyborg
- No response... she is AFK
- Wait a moment.. decide to do it myself
- First, I'm unarmed and the assistant is asking over radio where the chaplain is. I need that syringe gun
- With the captain's ID I easily grab the syringe gun. Load it with chloral
- Go back to the lab and just as I arrive the assistant comes in with his energy gun!
- We both shoot at the same time. He misses or the electrode hits a machine or something. At first I think we both missed and I start running
- Look at the messages and realise I hit him
- This is the first ever time I have beaten another player in any vaguely fair one-on-one matchup
- Turn the energy gun to kill and blast him. Same with the other gun. Some bashing finishes the job. Borging time!
- Stop a moment to take stock and realise that only 2 other crew have been talking on the radio. How many people are still alive?
- Someone's calling for help in cargo. A new plan! I can take the now-empty guns over there, and pop into the HoP office on the way with the pretext of recharging them in case there are more cultists
- Do so. Nick the HoP jumpsuit. No-one notices.
- Some people are calling for the shuttle. Why take the risk of borging and mucking around with an emag now? Get to the bridge and call it.
- It takes a long time to drag all the bodies to escape. There are at least 6 that I can remember including the 2 cultists. 2 in coffins in the chapel, one in bar maintenance and the one in genetics
- Embarrass my self a bit using stun mode on carp attacking escape, but eventually get them
- Lots of corpses on the shuttle. Nice touch someone's got them all in body bags. Unsurprisingly no suspicion falls on my character.
- Escape on the shuttle

[GlyphGryph]

Sounds like a pretty fun round for a massive SNAFU situation.