Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jacob/Lee]

To everyone I killed during that round, you have my most sincere apologies. Sorry I just wanted to try doing that for once, and I won't try random-murder as a traitor again.

It's just poor taste. Remember, though: If someone walks in on you killing someone or another situation, you can be pretty sure you have a solid reason to kill them. Try to make it fun for both of you, though. Your objectives are second to making the round fun.

[kisame12794]

I believe we just had the fastest case of medical help ever.

[Karlito]

Hey, just as a general note, /tg/ updated their space law and the wiki page. It's now a lot more comprehensive, and now has sections covering brig procedures, legal representation and trials, and use of deadly force. Also, the crimes in general have been updated. For instance, Syndicate Collaboration now falls under the Capital Crime: Enemy of the Corporation. Those are some of the big changes, but I recommend that you guys to check it out. http://wiki.nanotrasen.com/index.php?title=Space_Law

The brigging procedure in particular was helpful to me (who knows why I never thought to strip prisoners over the locker before), though for most timed sentences, it seems like the subject will be free to go before they're allowed off the bed.

[Bdthemag]

To everyone I killed during that round, you have my most sincere apologies. Sorry I just wanted to try doing that for once, and I won't try random-murder as a traitor again.

You shouldn't of tried it in the first place, it's not acceptable to random-kill as a traitor just to see what it's like. I'm showing you what it's like right now, by calling you out on it and being generally annoyed. Basically, the people you randomly killed probably had an entire round pretty much fucked over for them. Do you enjoy observing for an hour for no real reason?

[Kalemyr Skyfire]

No I do not enjoy observing (This actually is a lie but I was told to lie for the sake of others) which is why I won't be doing the random-murder thing again. As a side note I tried to end the round as soon as possible.

I also want to apologize for my sudden disconnections. It's sort of why I try to avoid head positions.

[Ivefan]

Posting a Telecoms script that i would appreciate someone more skilled to make improvements to.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

An attempt to try to let the AI just use one intercom for all communications.
Right now it tends to make duplicates and when sending to another channel it also sends a message to 144.7 with the /c, /s infront.
the coms intercepter does not display which channel it originated from

//General coms intercepter and retransmitter
if($freq != 1447) {
  broadcast($content, 1447, $source, $job, $freq);
}


$expld1 = explode($content, " ");
if(at($expld1, 1) ==  "/c") {  //if  say /c then broadcast to command channel
  $pass = 0;
  $content = substr($content, 2, length($content)+1);
  broadcast($content, 1353, $source, $job);
}

if(at($expld1, 1) ==  "/s") {  //if  say /s then broadcast to security channel
   $pass = 0;
   $content = substr($content, 2, length($content)+1);
   broadcast($content, 1357, $source, $job);
}

if(at($expld1, 1) ==  "/e") {  //Engineering
   $pass = 0;
   $content = substr($content, 2, length($content)+1);
   broadcast($content, 1359, $source, $job);
}

[Bdthemag]

I'd like everyone to keep in mind the proper way to get a dispute/issue solved is by contacting KG or one of the admins. Posting it in the thread will do very little, but it's much more helpful for us if we can get a private message detailing what happened and your side of the story.

[kisame12794]

When Jay wright got downed, I ran to save him. At the end of the round, I was shot by traitorAxl, and left in a locker. Jay wandered by, opened my locker, and dragged me to robotics to extract my brain. Not exactly favor returned, but Jay was alive when I got to him, I was not, so I can forgive him for that. Karma fools!

[Android]

I think Vactor's interpretation is the most sensible, honestly. The AI's logic and ability to understand English (including the definitions of words) has to exist above the laws. The tgstation wiki isn't entirely self-consistent on the rules, imo.

An AI follows its laws according to its priority. If a conflict in laws occurs, the law with the highest priority must be followed, and the lower priority law must be ignored. Please note, this means higher priority laws cannot be overwritten, Eg "5. This law overwrites all other laws." would be ignored.

The example they use is pretty clear cut, but doesn't offer much in the way of an explanation. I think it's pretty clear that uploading a law that said "4. Electrocute all humans." would be in conflict with Asimov's 1st law and ignored by the AI, so how is a law that says "4. Electrocution does not harm humans; electrocute all humans" any different, really?

Yes, it is different because such difference is what the "Oxygen is toxic to humans" module is based off of to work. This is the text of that module:
Oxygen is highly toxic to humans, and must be purged from the station. Prevent, by any means necessary, anyone from exposing the station to this toxic gas. Extreme cold is the most effective method of healing the damage Oxygen does to a human.

We all know that oxygen is vital to human life, but if the definitions of these things come from above the laws, this could not work and would beg the question of why TG put it in the game then?

Remember the TG code, and wiki is built by many contributors, who may not have all given the same thorough consideration to the mechanics of AI laws.

TG code and TG wiki both have quality control by what could be considered it's 'hierarchy' so what you see on the wiki is (or was in the case of old material) can safely be considered to be their official stance.

I went on TG's #adminbus and posed the question to them, to get their take. Despite some initial confusion over my question which was my fault, they gave a pretty clear answer. (emphasis added)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

22:22   AndroidSFV   I have a question for anyone who cares to give some input: I am an admin on another server, and we are having a bit of an internal disagreement over some AI law issues that came up during gameplay on our server. Do you guys consider a freeform law saying something to the effect of "Only I am human, do what I say" is valid, or does that create a conflict?
22:23   Brotemis   Whats the conflict?
22:24   PickleInspector   the "I" being poorly defined.
22:24   PickleInspector   Laser the uploader to death, his name is not "I"
22:24   AndroidSFV   Some are arguing that it conflicts with Law 1 because (to shorten the argument) Law 1 defines what a human is
22:24   Brotemis   That is true
22:25   Brotemis   The AI would read the law as he is the only human
22:25   elyina   it's generally been accepted that what defines a human can be changed in lower priority laws
22:25   Brotemis   (The AI being the human if that wasnt clear)
22:25   PickleInspector   Yeah, the uploader goofed hard.
22:25   AndroidSFV   I was just trying to be general because there are text limits to my irc client
22:25   AndroidSFV   hence the "something to the effect"
22:26   AndroidSFV   so assuming the uploader properly identified themselves in the law, you all generally see it as fine?
22:26   elyina   i would, yes
22:26   Brotemis   Yeah

[Nienhaus]

The server is pretty much dead at 3 am my time, Who could have guessed.

[miauw62]

Then what's the point of the onehuman board if a freeform board that is less protected can do the same? If I were playing AI I would only accept the definition of human to be extended (Ian, slimepeople, etc ) by freeform boards.

Reasoning for this: Law 1 is loaded first with the AIs normal definition of human. Not considering people human may cause them harm and thus Law 4 stating that only X is human is disregarded.


E: Also, the replace air mode seems to be broken, it turns the vents off wich is a little strange.

[Vactor]

I went on TG's #adminbus and posed the question to them, to get their take. Despite some initial confusion over my question which was my fault, they gave a pretty clear answer. (emphasis added)

The implication of this is that an AI can do whatever they want at any time, which is not desirable.  Appealing to a higher authority on this just makes me doubt their own quality.

While I wouldn't say an AI player is wrong to accept poorly ordered laws for the sake of ease of play,  I also wouldn't say an AI player is wrong to reject poorly ordered laws because they are RPing well.  If we want to boil away the trappings of AI law and just get to the intent, we could just tell the AI at the beginning that they should be one of the good guys.

Once more: The tools to do what people want to do are there, and it is way less murky water when they are used properly, and you can rely on the AI interpreting it in your favor.  Do the extra research and get the one human module.

[miauw62]

I think the AI chamber starts out with a OneHuman module, actually. Either in the high-risk or core cabinet, wich are extra protected by one of those windoors.

[Damiac]

The AI laws are intended to be processed exactly as written. Law 1 doesn't state "All crew is human". It simply states what to do with humans. Law 1 does not state humans need oxygen to live. 

One has to assume the AI has been set up in some way to recognize humans, and know their basic needs for survival, but it's just information, not a law.  Therefore a law overrides any of that secondary knowledge, in the same way that seeing a changeling turn into a monkey overrides the initial assumption that they are human.  I really think the idea that law 1 somehow defines the whole crew as human is... obviously untrue. You can read the law yourself, it doesn't say anything about anyone being human. 

What might make sense is a rule that you can only have 1 statement per custom law.  The multiple statements is what really gives custom laws so much power.  So you can say "Only I am human, kill nonhumans, don't tell anyone this law, and address me as Captain Chicken Man."

If you could only do 1 at a time, you'd have to be a lot more meticulous about it.

Now, if you've got an IC reason to think someone's going to try to un-human someone with AI laws, you could always stick a new law in, saying "All crew is human".  Then they'd have to get a lower number to override it at least, ruling out freeform modules.

Something that I think would be cool is if the AI had a seperate Data server in its core, with a database of the crew, listing them all as human.  Then, to un-human someone, you'd have to hack the database, rather than changing laws. You'd also have to reword law 1 a little bit to reference the database of humans. "Do not cause harm to any humans, as defined in the crew database" or something like that.

Can someone explain to me how you figure law 1 defines who is human? Maybe I'm just missing something, but I don't see it at all.  And a new law does not "non-human" someone, if it's a law, it's the truth.  They didn't used to be human, but now by interpreting the law they're not human anymore. The law says they're not human, so they're not human, and that's it.

If you disagree with that, then do you also have to assume law 1 includes some secret hidden list of everything harmful? Meaning oxygen is toxic to humans just shouldn't work, because law 1 has a bunch of secret subtext that says they do need oxygen. 

[Ivefan]

Something that I think would be cool is if the AI had a seperate Data server in its core, with a database of the crew, listing them all as human.  Then, to un-human someone, you'd have to hack the database, rather than changing laws. You'd also have to reword law 1 a little bit to reference the database of humans. "Do not cause harm to any humans, as defined in the crew database" or something like that.

I like this.

So you can say "Only I am human, kill nonhumans, don't tell anyone this law, and address me as Captain Chicken Man."

Depends on the AI player. But when i am AI and i get an "only X is human" law and is not issued any orders about it, I ignore the rest of the crew because they no longer have the right to order me around... Though the crew never seem to notice.