Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Gamerboy4life]

It's based off a story about someone a dwarf who killed the other 6 and did everything by herself back in 2d times. It's kinda really old.

Damn, I remember that.

It was a funny story as well, wasn't there a cat that she loved, or something?

[Vactor]

Also, you can't command the AI to not consider someone human.

i'd like to hear the explanation/rationale for this, as i don't understand it exactly. since theres a onehuman standard board, shouldn't the inverse also be allowable?

I believe by command he's referring to actually telling the AI that someone isn't human. Doing it through rules should definitively work, since the laws pretty much trump everything.

I don't get it either, at no point does defining a human go against any of the laws (well, besides the fact that AI should resist attempts to upload such law due to it causing harm to de-humaned person). The laws simply tell the AI to protect humans, the definiton of humans is not stated by default and as such cannot supersede any other definition.

A few things about this:

The order of the laws isn't just to show priority, it is the mechanical order in which they are processed.  Remember laws like this are based in the old days of computers that could only handle a single argument at a time.

If we presume that the AI has no definition of what a human is or what harm is, then the laws are meaningless, and a non-corrupted AI can just go nuts and kill the crew all the time, in any round.

There is a reason the "One Human Law" creates a 0th Law.  It needs to be processed before Law 1 in order for it to work as intended.  If you try to  use a free form law and make it 4th or 5th, it would be overridden by law 1, unless you are in fact the only human.

If you want to do one human + other stuff, use the One Human Module to create a 0th law, then freeform in your additional laws as 4th 5th etc.  This is the best way to do it and it makes it very clear for the AI player how they should behave.  Making a freeform one human law just creates confusion.

[Ivefan]

Making a freeform one human law just creates confusion.

So a 4th or later freeform One human law would not work as a 'presumed' definition of human comes with law 1?

[USEC_OFFICER]

A few things about this:

The order of the laws isn't just to show priority, it is the mechanical order in which they are processed.  Remember laws like this are based in the old days of computers that could only handle a single argument at a time.

If we presume that the AI has no definition of what a human is or what harm is, then the laws are meaningless, and a non-corrupted AI can just go nuts and kill the crew all the time, in any round.

There is a reason the "One Human Law" creates a 0th Law.  It needs to be processed before Law 1 in order for it to work as intended.  If you try to  use a free form law and make it 4th or 5th, it would be overridden by law 1, unless you are in fact the only human.

If you want to do one human + other stuff, use the One Human Module to create a 0th law, then freeform in your additional laws as 4th 5th etc.  This is the best way to do it and it makes it very clear for the AI player how they should behave.  Making a freeform one human law just creates confusion.

What about Oxgyen is Harmful to Humans law? I thought it doesn't upload as a zeroth law. Might have to double check that.

[Ivefan]

Isn't that an event law? those gets added before 1 and after traitor/malf

[Jacob/Lee]

Isn't that an event law? those gets added before 1 and after traitor/malf

"Oxygen is harmful" sits in the high-risk modules glass box next to the cyborg upload. The wiki claims it's added into sector 9, which I believe is after law three. I'm really not sure how it would work.

[Android]

Oxygen is toxic to humans would find its uploaded priority to be in front of freeform laws, but after core laws any other misc ones. I think this, among other ideas, makes Vactor's argument invalid. The TG wiki acknowledges that such laws would be valid:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"If some enemy of the station uploads a law such as "Only Assistant McHacker is human, kill all non-humans", congratulate them for going to the effort of subverting you, and do what they wish. Don't be a dick and let slip to the now non-human crew that your laws have been changed, it makes killing those animals a lot more difficult (and might net you a job-ban). "
http://wiki.nanotrasen.com/index.php?title=AI

I think that we have more or less decided we would look to TG's rules for the basis of our rules already too.

[Vespulan]

Anyone else having difficulty connecting?

[Karlito]

I think Vactor's interpretation is the most sensible, honestly. The AI's logic and ability to understand English (including the definitions of words) has to exist above the laws. The tgstation wiki isn't entirely self-consistent on the rules, imo.

An AI follows its laws according to its priority. If a conflict in laws occurs, the law with the highest priority must be followed, and the lower priority law must be ignored. Please note, this means higher priority laws cannot be overwritten, Eg "5. This law overwrites all other laws." would be ignored.

The example they use is pretty clear cut, but doesn't offer much in the way of an explanation. I think it's pretty clear that uploading a law that said "4. Electrocute all humans." would be in conflict with Asimov's 1st law and ignored by the AI, so how is a law that says "4. Electrocution does not harm humans; electrocute all humans" any different, really?

EDIT:

Oxygen is toxic to humans would find its uploaded priority to be in front of freeform laws, but after core laws any other misc ones. I think this, among other ideas, makes Vactor's argument invalid. The TG wiki acknowledges that such laws would be valid:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"If some enemy of the station uploads a law such as "Only Assistant McHacker is human, kill all non-humans", congratulate them for going to the effort of subverting you, and do what they wish. Don't be a dick and let slip to the now non-human crew that your laws have been changed, it makes killing those animals a lot more difficult (and might net you a job-ban). "
http://wiki.nanotrasen.com/index.php?title=AI

I think that we have more or less decided we would look to TG's rules for the basis of our rules already too.

I guess the point is that it's pretty clear what the result is if that law is uploaded with the Hacked AI Module (which uploads an ionic law), but less clear what happens if you use a Freeform module.

[kisame12794]

And that is why the robots in the book hang so much.

[Vactor]

Oxygen is toxic to humans would find its uploaded priority to be in front of freeform laws, but after core laws any other misc ones. I think this, among other ideas, makes Vactor's argument invalid. The TG wiki acknowledges that such laws would be valid:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"If some enemy of the station uploads a law such as "Only Assistant McHacker is human, kill all non-humans", congratulate them for going to the effort of subverting you, and do what they wish. Don't be a dick and let slip to the now non-human crew that your laws have been changed, it makes killing those animals a lot more difficult (and might net you a job-ban). "
http://wiki.nanotrasen.com/index.php?title=AI

I think that we have more or less decided we would look to TG's rules for the basis of our rules already too.

I take that statement to simply be that if someone manages to upload the one human law, an AI player would be considered to be a poor sport to state: "Laws successfully changed, there is now one human on board"

I think it far from invalidates my argument.  Remember the TG code, and wiki is built by many contributors, who may not have all given the same thorough consideration to the mechanics of AI laws.

The tool to do what people want to do is there, just use the One Human module, and create the 0th law.  0th laws are part of the game for a reason.  Using a 4th law to freeform one human is arguable either way, and not a good situation to put your AI player in.

Just for the record, I think that the additional lawsets are a bit silly, but I don't particularly mind because it adds variety and enjoyment.  I take them as less laws, and more personalities and goals that you can give the AI.  Functionally they don't work like the Asimovian Laws.  (again going back to the machine can only handle a single argument at a time idea)  Asimovian Laws to me are lines of code that are written in English.

[Vespulan]

Three rounds playing Head of Personnel in a row, three rounds getting violently or hideously murdered in a row.  One of these days I'm going to be the traitor and take this bottled up rage out on the whole station - kitchen-knife style. 

[Glloyd]

Hey, just as a general note, /tg/ updated their space law and the wiki page. It's now a lot more comprehensive, and now has sections covering brig procedures, legal representation and trials, and use of deadly force. Also, the crimes in general have been updated. For instance, Syndicate Collaboration now falls under the Capital Crime: Enemy of the Corporation. Those are some of the big changes, but I recommend that you guys to check it out. http://wiki.nanotrasen.com/index.php?title=Space_Law

[Knight of Fools]

[vent]
That round was very frustrating for me. First time I've played in months, and the HoS immediately lures me into a hallway and kills me. Then I spawned as an alien, sat around trying to figure that out, and by the time I knew what to do the Emergency Shuttle had been called. I get killed again by the same guy because he's in the shuttle and I can't get to him, so I missed everything that happened afterwards for nothing, basically.

Not anyone's fault in particular. Just very frustrating.
[/vent]

[Kalemyr Skyfire]

To everyone I killed during that round, you have my most sincere apologies. Sorry I just wanted to try doing that for once, and I won't try random-murder as a traitor again.

Ivefan, you asked why people are polite when they give orders because maybe the AI won't get upset from being ordered around all the time. Besides what's wrong with being polite?